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Offline xenocross

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Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« on: 09 January 2014, 12:54:16 AM »
darimana tahu tidak 100% murni lagi ?

The Pali Satipatthana Sutta includes a number of sections that are not shared with other texts on satipatthana, and which are later additions.

One of the additions is the inclusion of the awareness of postures and daily activities among its meditation exercizes. The awareness of postures is, in every other text, part of the preparation for meditation, not a kind of meditation itself.

Another late addition to the Pali Satipatthana Sutta is a ‘refrain’ following each meditation, which says one practices contemplating ‘rise and fall’. This is a vipassana practice, which originally belonged to only the final of the four satipatthanas, contemplation of dhammas.

The contemplation of dhammas has also undergone large scale expansion. The original text included just the five hindrances and the seven awakening factors. The five aggregates, six sense media, and four noble truths were added later.

Each version of the Satipatthana Sutta is based on a shared ancestor, which has been expanded in different ways by the schools. This process continued for several centuries following the Buddha’s death. Of the texts we have today, the closest to the ancestral version is that contained in the Pali Abhidhamma Vibhanga, if we leave aside the Abhidhammic elaborations.

Tracing the development of texts on satipatthana in later Buddhism, there is a gradual tendency to emphasize the vipassana aspect at the expense of the samatha side. This happened across various schools, although there is some variation from text to text, and perhaps some differences in sectarian emphasis. This led to various contradictions and problems in interpretation.

http://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/a-brief-history-of-mindfulness/
=================================================================

Semua teks lainnya, termasuk Jātaka, Abhidhamma dari berbagai aliran, sūtra-sūtra Mahāyāna, dan seterusnya, dituliskan kemudian. Relatif sedikit dari ajaran-ajaran ini dianut sama antara aliran-aliran; yaitu, mereka adalah Buddhisme sektarian. Walaupun lensa kritik historis, gambar besar dari kemunculan dan perkembangan ajaran-ajaran ini dapat ditelusuri dengan sangat jelas, dalam dinamika internal dari evolusi ajaran dan dalam tanggapan Buddhisme pada lingkungan budaya, sosial, dan religius yang berubah-ubah. Tidak ada bukti bahwa ajaran-ajaran khusus dari teks-teks ini – yaitu, ajaran-ajaran yang tidak juga ditemukan dalam Sutta-Sutta awal – berasal dari Sang Buddha. Alih-alih, teks-teks ini seharusnya dianggap sebagai jawaban yang diberikan para guru dari masa kuno atas pertanyaan: “Apakah makna Buddhisme bagi kami?” Setiap generasi berikutnya pasti melakukan tugas sulit dalam prinsip penafsiran, akulturasi kembali Dhamma pada waktu dan tempat. Dan kita, dalam masa-masa kita yang menggemparkan, yang demikian berbeda dari mereka dari masa atau budaya Buddhis masa lampau, harus menemukan jawaban kita sendiri. Dari perspektif ini, ajaran-ajaran aliran-aliran memberikan pelajaran-pelajaran yang tidak ternilai, suatu kekayaan teladan yang telah diwariskan kepada kita oleh para nenek moyang kita dalam keyakinan.

http://dhammacitta.org/forum/index.php/topic,24689.0.html
Satu saat dari pikiran yang dikuasai amarah membakar kebaikan yang telah dikumpulkan selama berkalpa-kalpa.
~ Mahavairocana Sutra

Offline seniya

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #1 on: 09 January 2014, 08:13:01 AM »
The Pali Satipatthana Sutta includes a number of sections that are not shared with other texts on satipatthana, and which are later additions.

One of the additions is the inclusion of the awareness of postures and daily activities among its meditation exercizes. The awareness of postures is, in every other text, part of the preparation for meditation, not a kind of meditation itself.

Another late addition to the Pali Satipatthana Sutta is a ‘refrain’ following each meditation, which says one practices contemplating ‘rise and fall’. This is a vipassana practice, which originally belonged to only the final of the four satipatthanas, contemplation of dhammas.

The contemplation of dhammas has also undergone large scale expansion. The original text included just the five hindrances and the seven awakening factors. The five aggregates, six sense media, and four noble truths were added later.

Each version of the Satipatthana Sutta is based on a shared ancestor, which has been expanded in different ways by the schools. This process continued for several centuries following the Buddha’s death. Of the texts we have today, the closest to the ancestral version is that contained in the Pali Abhidhamma Vibhanga, if we leave aside the Abhidhammic elaborations.

Tracing the development of texts on satipatthana in later Buddhism, there is a gradual tendency to emphasize the vipassana aspect at the expense of the samatha side. This happened across various schools, although there is some variation from text to text, and perhaps some differences in sectarian emphasis. This led to various contradictions and problems in interpretation.

http://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/a-brief-history-of-mindfulness/
=================================================================

Semua teks lainnya, termasuk Jātaka, Abhidhamma dari berbagai aliran, sūtra-sūtra Mahāyāna, dan seterusnya, dituliskan kemudian. Relatif sedikit dari ajaran-ajaran ini dianut sama antara aliran-aliran; yaitu, mereka adalah Buddhisme sektarian. Walaupun lensa kritik historis, gambar besar dari kemunculan dan perkembangan ajaran-ajaran ini dapat ditelusuri dengan sangat jelas, dalam dinamika internal dari evolusi ajaran dan dalam tanggapan Buddhisme pada lingkungan budaya, sosial, dan religius yang berubah-ubah. Tidak ada bukti bahwa ajaran-ajaran khusus dari teks-teks ini – yaitu, ajaran-ajaran yang tidak juga ditemukan dalam Sutta-Sutta awal – berasal dari Sang Buddha. Alih-alih, teks-teks ini seharusnya dianggap sebagai jawaban yang diberikan para guru dari masa kuno atas pertanyaan: “Apakah makna Buddhisme bagi kami?” Setiap generasi berikutnya pasti melakukan tugas sulit dalam prinsip penafsiran, akulturasi kembali Dhamma pada waktu dan tempat. Dan kita, dalam masa-masa kita yang menggemparkan, yang demikian berbeda dari mereka dari masa atau budaya Buddhis masa lampau, harus menemukan jawaban kita sendiri. Dari perspektif ini, ajaran-ajaran aliran-aliran memberikan pelajaran-pelajaran yang tidak ternilai, suatu kekayaan teladan yang telah diwariskan kepada kita oleh para nenek moyang kita dalam keyakinan.

http://dhammacitta.org/forum/index.php/topic,24689.0.html


Terjemahan buku A History of Mindfulness oleh Bhikkhu Sujato (blm selesai) ada di http://dhammacitta.org/forum/index.php/topic,23972.0.html

Spoiler: ShowHide
Maaf, promosi ;D
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Offline dilbert

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #2 on: 09 January 2014, 01:40:49 PM »
The Pali Satipatthana Sutta includes a number of sections that are not shared with other texts on satipatthana, and which are later additions.

One of the additions is the inclusion of the awareness of postures and daily activities among its meditation exercizes. The awareness of postures is, in every other text, part of the preparation for meditation, not a kind of meditation itself.

Another late addition to the Pali Satipatthana Sutta is a ‘refrain’ following each meditation, which says one practices contemplating ‘rise and fall’. This is a vipassana practice, which originally belonged to only the final of the four satipatthanas, contemplation of dhammas.

The contemplation of dhammas has also undergone large scale expansion. The original text included just the five hindrances and the seven awakening factors. The five aggregates, six sense media, and four noble truths were added later.

Each version of the Satipatthana Sutta is based on a shared ancestor, which has been expanded in different ways by the schools. This process continued for several centuries following the Buddha’s death. Of the texts we have today, the closest to the ancestral version is that contained in the Pali Abhidhamma Vibhanga, if we leave aside the Abhidhammic elaborations.

Tracing the development of texts on satipatthana in later Buddhism, there is a gradual tendency to emphasize the vipassana aspect at the expense of the samatha side. This happened across various schools, although there is some variation from text to text, and perhaps some differences in sectarian emphasis. This led to various contradictions and problems in interpretation.

http://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/a-brief-history-of-mindfulness/
=================================================================

Semua teks lainnya, termasuk Jātaka, Abhidhamma dari berbagai aliran, sūtra-sūtra Mahāyāna, dan seterusnya, dituliskan kemudian. Relatif sedikit dari ajaran-ajaran ini dianut sama antara aliran-aliran; yaitu, mereka adalah Buddhisme sektarian. Walaupun lensa kritik historis, gambar besar dari kemunculan dan perkembangan ajaran-ajaran ini dapat ditelusuri dengan sangat jelas, dalam dinamika internal dari evolusi ajaran dan dalam tanggapan Buddhisme pada lingkungan budaya, sosial, dan religius yang berubah-ubah. Tidak ada bukti bahwa ajaran-ajaran khusus dari teks-teks ini – yaitu, ajaran-ajaran yang tidak juga ditemukan dalam Sutta-Sutta awal – berasal dari Sang Buddha. Alih-alih, teks-teks ini seharusnya dianggap sebagai jawaban yang diberikan para guru dari masa kuno atas pertanyaan: “Apakah makna Buddhisme bagi kami?” Setiap generasi berikutnya pasti melakukan tugas sulit dalam prinsip penafsiran, akulturasi kembali Dhamma pada waktu dan tempat. Dan kita, dalam masa-masa kita yang menggemparkan, yang demikian berbeda dari mereka dari masa atau budaya Buddhis masa lampau, harus menemukan jawaban kita sendiri. Dari perspektif ini, ajaran-ajaran aliran-aliran memberikan pelajaran-pelajaran yang tidak ternilai, suatu kekayaan teladan yang telah diwariskan kepada kita oleh para nenek moyang kita dalam keyakinan.

http://dhammacitta.org/forum/index.php/topic,24689.0.html


Emang Suttanta dan Vinaya ditulis sejak kapan ?
VAYADHAMMA SANKHARA APPAMADENA SAMPADETHA
Semua yang berkondisi tdak kekal adanya, berjuanglah dengan penuh kewaspadaan

Offline xenocross

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #3 on: 18 January 2014, 05:33:13 PM »
Emang Suttanta dan Vinaya ditulis sejak kapan ?

Such partisan manipulation of sacred scriptures has only one good consequence: no-one can reasonably insist that the Tipitaka must have remained unchanged for all time.

The Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta is the only significant discourse in the Dīgha Nikāya that is not found in the Dharmaguptaka Dīrgha Āgama. This is no mere oversight, for it is also absent from the Sarvāstivāda Dīrgha. I would therefore consider the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta as a leading contender for the title of the latest discourse in the four Nikāyas, a lost waif straying over from the early abhidhamma. It is worth noting that this is the only discourse in all the existing collections to be duplicated in both the Majjhima and the Dīgha, further evidence of its anomalous character. It is obviously just the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta padded out with further material, and again, the increase is not small.

The Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta treats the four noble truths by merely stating them. In the Suttas this kind of formulation often indicates, not vipassanā, but the realization of stream entry; thus it could have been originally intended to express the results of the practice of the previous sections. But the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta gathers much material from elsewhere in the Suttas, ending up with the longest of all expositions of the truths, virtually doubling the length of the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, and clearly presenting the four noble truths section as an extended course in vipassanā.

The new material is mainly identical with the Saccavibhaṅga Sutta.398 The Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta adds a lengthy analysis of the second and third noble truths to the Saccavibhaṅga Sutta material. This is structured around the following series of dhammas, spelled out for each of the sense media: external sense media, internal sense media, cognition, contact, feeling, perception, volition, craving, initial application, sustained application. The Saṁyutta Nikāya includes a similar list, although it has the elements and the aggregates for the final two members of the list, rather than initial & sustained application. Several of the Saṁyuttas containing this series are missing from the Sarvāstivāda Saṁyukta.399 Nevertheless, a similar list, again omitting the final two members, is found in the Sarvāstivāda Satyavibhaṅga Sūtra. The only place where the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna list occurs verbatim in the four Nikāyas is in the ‘repetition series’ appended to the Aṅguttara sevens.400 Such sections are late, and in the present case the whole passage is ignored by the commentary.

This list is an expanded form of the psychological analysis of the cognitive process first enunciated in the third discourse, the Ādittapariyāya Sutta, and repeated countless times subsequently. Eventually, this series would evolve into the cittavīthi, the final, definitive exposition of psychological processes worked out in great detail by the later ābhidhammikas. Thus the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta stands as an important bridge to the Abhidhamma. We have already discussed the fact that almost all this four noble truths material is found in the Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga exposition of the truths.

Needless to say, most of the new material in the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta is vipassanā oriented, continuing the trend we have consistently observed in the development of the satipaṭṭhāna texts within the Pali canon. Nevertheless, the exposition of the truths, and therefore the Sutta as a whole, ends with the four jhānas as right samādhi, restating the basic function of satipaṭṭhāna to lead to jhāna in the eightfold path.

The significance of the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta can best be understood in light of the structure of the Dīgha Nikāya as a whole. The most authentic and often repeated teaching in the Dīgha sets out the very heart of Dhamma practice. In the discussion of the GIST we saw that, leaving aside the Brahmajāla Sutta, the Dīgha Nikāya starts off with a series of twelve discourses expounding the gradual training in detail, including the four jhānas. This would be pounded into the heads of the Dīgha students over and again as the way of training. In fact the GIST says that this section was the original core around which the Dīgha was formed. Thus the whole of the Dīgha may well have started out as a jhāna-manual.

There is little vipassanā material in the Dīgha. A striking example of this is the rarity of the five aggregates. Leaving aside the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, meditation on the aggregates is mentioned only in the legendary context of the Mahāpadāna Sutta. Elsewhere the aggregates receive but a bare enunciation in the proto-abhidhamma compilations such as the Saṅgīti and Dasuttara Suttas.

The compilers of the Theravāda Dīgha Nikāya wished to include more vipassanā material to balance the strong samādhi emphasis. Now, there are three texts treating mindfulness practice in detail in the Majjhima: the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, the Ānāpānasati Sutta, and the Kāyagatāsati Sutta. The latter two clearly emphasize samādhi, so in choosing which of the three to ‘promote’ to the Dīgha the compilers chose the most vipassanā oriented text and padded it out with further vipassanā material to redress the imbalance of the Dīgha Nikāya as a whole. And in context, this was most reasonable. But when the discourse is divorced from its context and treated as a blueprint for a meditation technique different from, even superior to, the mainstream samādhi practice, a shift of emphasis becomes a radical distortion of meaning.

We can pin down a little more precisely the date of the formation of the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta. We have already noted that it is absent from both the Sarvāstivāda and Dharmaguptaka Dīrghas. These schools split after the time of Aśoka. The Sri Lankan mission arrived in the Aśokan period, and the Theravāda were based on the island from that time.401 Given their doctrinal and textual closeness, the Theravāda and the Dharmaguptaka are really just the Northern and Southern, or Gandhāri and Sinhalese, branches of the same school.

This raises the possibility that the final editing of the Pali Nikāyas was carried out on Sri Lankan soil. This case was put by Oliver Abeynayake in his article ‘Sri Lanka’s Contribution to the Development of the Pali Canon.’402 To summarize a few of his points, much of the Vinaya Parivāra was composed in Sri Lanka. In addition, the restructuring of the Vinaya Piṭaka, from the early form of the Bhikkhu Vibhaṅga and Bhikkhunī Vibhaṅga which is attested in all schools including the Theravāda Vinaya Culavagga itself, to the current division along the lines of the ‘Pārājika Pali’ and ‘Pācittiya Pali’ is unique to Sri Lanka, and may plausibly be regarded as a Sinhalese development. Several sections of the Khuddaka Nikāya, including the Khuddakapāṭha, are Sri Lankan. In the four major Nikāyas, Yakkaduwe Sri Pragnarama, the late principal of the Vidyalankara Pirivena in Sri Lanka, has identified, in the Theravāda Majjhima, eight sentences of the Mūlapariyāya Sutta and four verses of the Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta that are in Sinhalese Prakrit, not Pali. The Theravāda commentaries themselves assert that some of the material in the Dīgha was added by the Sinhalese elders, namely the closing verses of the Mahā Parinibbāna Sutta, starting with ‘There were eight measures of the relics…’. This is plausible, since the verses are in a late metre; also they include, not merely worship of relics, but specifically the teeth relics, which is one of the most distinctive features of Sinhalese Buddhism. Moreover, the line preceding them is a catch-phrase in Pali (evam’etaṁ bhūtapubbaṁ, ‘that is how it was’) that refers to far-off events in the legendary past, like the English ‘Once upon a time…’. The commentary even admits that this phrase was inserted in the Third Council, at the time of Aśoka.

However, despite this strong evidence, some of the verses are included in the Sanskrit version. This contains the verse ‘There were eight measures of the relics…’ and that on the teeth relics. It is most unlikely that a Sinhalese composition found its way into a Sanskrit text in the north of India, so perhaps these verses were added in India after all. But the later verses, starting with ‘By their power this fruitful earth…’, are absent from the Sanskrit, and may well have been added in Sri Lanka.

This last point may indirectly bear on the date of the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta. The closing verses of the Mahā Parinibbāna Sutta are predominately late metres such as vaṁsattha. One of the few other places in the canon that contains vaṁsattha and other similarly late, elaborate verse styles is the Lakkhaṇa Sutta.403 This hagiographical text is found in the Sarvāstivādin Majjhima and in the Theravāda, but not the Dharmaguptaka or Sarvāstivāda, Dīgha. It therefore must have been transferred from the Majjhima to the Dīgha after the Dharmaguptaka schism, at around the same time as the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta was created. This shift was prompted by the large-scale expansion of the text. The Sarvāstivāda Madhyama version merely speaks of the two careers open to a Great Man, and lists the 32 marks. The Theravāda Dīgha version adds detailed prose explanations and verse elaborations of the workings of kamma and its fruits regarding the 32 marks.404 The commentary says the verses were added by Venerable Ānanda. Although this cannot be accepted as literally true, it implies the commentators were aware that the verses were added later and by a different hand. They should be ascribed to monks following Ānanda’s devotional tradition. These verses are similar in style to the closing verses of the Mahā Parinibbāna Sutta, which the commentary says were added in Sri Lanka. Given this, as well as the verses’ evident lateness and omission from the Sarvāstivāda, it is likely that they were also added in Sri Lanka. The verses were probably added to the Lakkhaṇa Sutta around the same time as the extra four noble truths material was added to the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, and so we suggest that the resulting Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta was composed in Sri Lanka.

We may then ask when these additions may have occurred. There is no direct evidence, but we can seek a convenient peg on which to hang them. After the introduction of Buddhist texts in the time of Aśoka, the first literary activity of major importance in Sri Lanka is during the reign of Vaṭṭagāminī. At that time, due to war with the Tamils, the lineage of oral transmission of the Tipitaka was nearly broken. The Sangha made the momentous decision to write down the Tipitaka, asserting that study and preservation of the texts was more important than practice of their contents (a decision that has set the agenda for the Theravāda until the present day). According to recent scholarly opinion this was around 20 BCE. I suggest that this was when the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta was created.

There is an unfortunate side-effect of this kind of textual analysis. It’s not hard to deconstruct ancient, heavily edited texts like the Buddhist scriptures. There are plenty of fault-lines, anomalies, and obscurities if one wishes to look. But what are we to do​—​demolish the palace and leave a pile of rubble? This too is not authentic to the texts, for, despite everything, the Nikāyas/Āgamas offer us a vast body of teachings springing from a remarkably uniform vision, a clarity and harmony of perspective that is unparalleled in any comparably large and ancient body of writings. To give the impression that the situation is hopelessly confused and problematic is to deny this extraordinary fact. While it is naïve and untenable to pretend there are no problems, throwing our hands up in the air in despair shows an excess of what the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta calls ‘spiritual depression’ (nirāmisa domanassa). I think the lines of unity and consistency in satipaṭṭhāna are far more significant and powerful than the fractures. But in this book so far, the threads of connection and continuity are buried in the pages of analysis. The question is, how to make this unity vivid?

14.4 Theravāda Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta
http://santifm.org/santipada/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A_History_of_Mindfulness_Bhikkhu_Sujato.html
Satu saat dari pikiran yang dikuasai amarah membakar kebaikan yang telah dikumpulkan selama berkalpa-kalpa.
~ Mahavairocana Sutra

Offline xenocross

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #4 on: 19 January 2014, 05:20:27 PM »
Emang Suttanta dan Vinaya ditulis sejak kapan ?

These] scrolls and scroll fragments are a stunning find: an entirely new strand of Buddhist literature.

[Scholars traditionally thought] that if they traced the various branches of the tree of Buddhist textual history back far enough, they would arrive at the single ancestral root . . .

As scholars scrutinized the Gandhari texts, however, they saw that history didn’t work that way at all . . . It was a mistake to assume that the foundation of Buddhist textual tradition was singular, that if you followed the genealogical branches back far enough into the past they would eventually converge. Traced back in time, the genealogical branches diverged and intertwined in such complex relationships that [the model] broke down completely . . .

It is now clear that none of the existing Buddhist collections of early Indian scriptures—not the Pali, Sanskrit, Chinese, nor even the Gandhari—‘can be privileged as the most authentic or original words of the Buddha.”

These scrolls are incontrovertible proof that as early as the first century B.C.E., there was another significant living Buddhist tradition in a separate region of India and in an entirely different language from the tradition preserved in Pali.

http://www.douban.com/group/topic/22375578/
Satu saat dari pikiran yang dikuasai amarah membakar kebaikan yang telah dikumpulkan selama berkalpa-kalpa.
~ Mahavairocana Sutra

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #5 on: 20 January 2014, 02:20:45 PM »
These] scrolls and scroll fragments are a stunning find: an entirely new strand of Buddhist literature.

[Scholars traditionally thought] that if they traced the various branches of the tree of Buddhist textual history back far enough, they would arrive at the single ancestral root . . .

As scholars scrutinized the Gandhari texts, however, they saw that history didn’t work that way at all . . . It was a mistake to assume that the foundation of Buddhist textual tradition was singular, that if you followed the genealogical branches back far enough into the past they would eventually converge. Traced back in time, the genealogical branches diverged and intertwined in such complex relationships that [the model] broke down completely . . .

It is now clear that none of the existing Buddhist collections of early Indian scriptures—not the Pali, Sanskrit, Chinese, nor even the Gandhari—‘can be privileged as the most authentic or original words of the Buddha.”

These scrolls are incontrovertible proof that as early as the first century B.C.E., there was another significant living Buddhist tradition in a separate region of India and in an entirely different language from the tradition preserved in Pali.

http://www.douban.com/group/topic/22375578/

maka-nya kalau gw gak masalah mau kata-kan Mahayana itu bukan ajaran dari Buddha. wkwkwkwkw
VAYADHAMMA SANKHARA APPAMADENA SAMPADETHA
Semua yang berkondisi tdak kekal adanya, berjuanglah dengan penuh kewaspadaan

Offline xenocross

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #6 on: 21 January 2014, 10:23:07 PM »
Ini ada satu bacaan bagus, SOME PALI DISCOURSES IN THE LIGHT OF THEIR CHINESE PARALLELS
oleh bhikkhu Analayo

dimana dengan memeriksa versi chinese nya, beberapa sutta menjadi lebih masuk akal.

http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/fileadmin/pdf/analayo/SomePaliDis1.pdf
Satu saat dari pikiran yang dikuasai amarah membakar kebaikan yang telah dikumpulkan selama berkalpa-kalpa.
~ Mahavairocana Sutra

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #7 on: 23 January 2014, 11:19:01 AM »
sangat di sayangkan banyak dari Gandhari text masih di tangan beberapa pihak (baik museum dan privat) dan susah untuk diakses bagi umat Buddha pada umumnya.

yang sangat di sayangkan adalah gandhari text yang di tangan private kondisi text nya sangat memprihatinkan tidak seperti museum yang menjaga text aslinya dengan baik hingga kadang setelah di peroleh pihak museum memerlukan renovasi dan pemulihan media dan text yang sangat lama (x-ray, dll) untuk membaca text gabdhari tersebut.

Yang lebih di sayangkan lagi penemuan gandhara text ini seperti maling kuburan kuno yang menjarah makam kuno hingga menemukan penyimpanan perpustakaan kuno (mungkin dari sebuah arama), dan baru di ketahui belakangan sesudah text tersebut di jarah dan di jual belikan kemudian.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2014, 11:51:40 AM by kullatiro »

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #8 on: 23 January 2014, 12:36:55 PM »
Sebagai bahan tambahan yg berkaitan dg topik ini, berikut ada artikel menarik dari Bhikkhu Sujato:

Below I list some of the reasons supporting the claim that the Nikayas/Agamas are pre-sectarian Buddhism, while other texts belong to the sectarian period.

Nikayas/Agamas

1.       The doctrinal content of the Nikayas and Agamas is nearly identical, and the actual texts are very close. The simplest explanation for this is that they both derive from the same stock of pre-sectarian teachings.

2.       There is archeological evidence dating perhaps 200 years after the Buddha that mentions some suttas by name; refers to such collections as the ‘Pitakas’; and depicts scenes, titles, and a fragment of verse from the Jatakas.

3.        All schools of Buddhism accepted the Nikayas/Agamas and the Vinaya as authentic.

4.       The suttas and vinaya refer to themselves and to each other, but not to the abhidhamma or to any other literature.

Abhidhamma

1.       The language, style, and doctrine of the abhidhamma clearly presuppose the suttas.

2.       The abhidhammas of the schools are almost totally different. Not only did other schools reject the Theravada abhidhamma, but some schools rejected the whole abhidhamma movement.

3.       The early sources, both textual and archeological, know nothing of the texts, the special doctrines, or the mythic origins of the abhidhamma.

4.       The sutta passages that have been invoked by abhidhammikas past and present to authorize the abhidhamma are either late or irrelevant.

5.       The Abhidhamma Pitaka itself does not claim to be the words of the Buddha. This claim originated in the chronicles and commentaries.

Mahayana Sutras

1.       The Mahayana sutras were composed in Sanskrit, which was not invented until about 500 years after the Buddha. Note that, while the Mahayana sutras were composed in Sanskrit, the early suttas of some schools (including those preserved as the Chinese Agamas) were translated around the same period from a sort of Pali into Sanskrit.

2.       The literary style, geographical knowledge, social conditions, technology, etc. portrayed in the Mahayana sutras also attest a similar date.

3.       The teachings of the Mahayana sutras can be shown to emerge from a historical process of doctrinal evolution among the early schools.

4.       The myth of the Mahayana asserts that the sutras were preserved for 500 years in the dragon realm, which assumes the existence of written texts in the Buddha’s time. There are also references to written texts within the Mahayana sutras themselves. Unfortunately, scholars are agreed that no suttas were written down until about 400 years later.

5.       The Mahayana sutras were rejected by the early schools as later inventions.

These conclusions are now firmly established. But it is still normal in traditional Buddhist circles to regard all the Buddhist scriptures as having sprung full-blown from the Master’s lips. Recently a bright, learned young monk told me that it is ‘evil’ to even question whether the Abhidhamma was spoken by the Buddha. This is fundamentalism. Behind this defensiveness lies fear: fear disguised as faith, fear that our cherished religious convictions will be undermined. And if our Buddhism is identified with the teachings and institutions of modern dogmatic schools, the end products of 2500 years of evolution whose claim to represent the original teachings is buttressed only by flimsy fables, our fears may well be justified. But if we seek the truth, we need fear no inquiry. The sincere application of critical methodology can only take us closer to the Buddha’s message, clarify the process of textual formulation, and reveal how that message was adapted by the schools.

In the application of historico-critical methodology Buddhism lags way behind Christianity. Although the history of Christianity has been often marred by severe, violent repression of heresy and a refusal to subject its dogmas to scrutiny, in modern times the scientific study of the Bible has made great strides. My own historical study of Buddhist teachings has been substantially informed by my interest in contemporary Bible studies. The fundamentalists and some of the mainline churches are still suspicious of such methods; yet their sceptical findings have reached a wide general audience and acceptance. It is past time for Buddhism to do the same. We need less courage than they. We have never relied so heavily on our myths, and so we have less to lose as the myths crumble away, like ancient forgotten monuments to a past that is no more.

Historical criticism is always uncertain, its findings ranging between ‘possible’ and ‘probable’. But we have no choice. The only alternative is blind adherence to tradition. I regard this as a refusal to accept our responsibility as custodians of the Dhamma, the stifling of the living spirit of inquiry by the dead hand of orthodoxy. I believe it would be wrong to urge a ‘moderate’ application of these criteria. After 2500 years of myth-making, moderation would be immoderate. Traditional Buddhist institutions are increasingly irrelevant even in their own countries, and have never been relevant outside. Authenticity to the core of the Buddha’s revelation will surely prove a more solid foundation for a new, global Buddhism than adherence to nationalistic traditions. The other extreme is where ‘Buddhism’ becomes so vacuous as to lose all meaning. A bit of hard-headed rational criticism is a good antidote to both these extremes. When the dust settles we should have a clearer view of what ‘Buddhism’ means in the new millenium. And when we make mistakes along the way, as we must, we can consider them as offerings to the traditionalists, who will surely derive much joy from pointing them out!

Below I list a number of criteria that I have found useful. Obviously each criterion taken individually is a highly imperfect tool. But they are synergistic: where several criteria agree, the concurrence multiplies our confidence in our conclusions – the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. So in these studies it is imperative to use as wide a variety of criteria as possible, sensitively appraise the reliability of each criterion in the relevent context, remain alive to any contrary indications, and make our conclusions no more certain than the evidence warrants.

Simplicity: Shorter, more basic teachings are likely to have appeared earlier than complex, scholastic elaborations. This is one of the fundamentals of historical criticism.

Multiple Attestation: Teachings appearing more often are likely to be more authentic than those less frequent. This of course only applies to independent attestation, not mere repetition.

Similarity: Teachings congruent in style, form, or content with known early teachings are more likely to be authentic than heterodox passages.

Dissimilarity: Teachings dissimilar to other traditions, whether pre-Buddhist or later Buddhism, are unlikely to have appeared through assimilation or revision and thus are likely to be authentic. Notice that this principle does not say that teachings held in common with other traditions are inauthentic; it simply can’t tell.

Concordance between Nikayas and Agamas: The essential congruence of the Nikayas and the Agamas is probably the most important finding of modern Buddhist studies, and should become a standard criterion in all matters concerning early Buddhism. Although the basic findings are in, there remains much work to be done in sorting out the finer details.

Unfavourability: some passages reflect badly on the Sangha (eg. the quarrel at Kosambi), individual monks (eg. when they are admonished by the Buddha), or even on the Buddha himself (notably the bizarre story of the murdered monks, which raises serious doubts as to the Buddha’s omniscience even in a limited sense). These are unlikely to be later inventions.

Reading out, not in: We should not assume that we already understand the Dhamma when reading the suttas, and feel that the suttas need ‘readjusting’ to accord with our ideas (or the ideas of our school). We should approach the suttas as humble students, as empty vessels open for the Dhamma to pour in. It is of course one of the basics of Dhamma to realize that our preconceptions distort our view of reality; yet this is what commentators do time and again. The ideas of commentators dating centuries later become buried almost invisibly in the dictionaries, translations, footnotes, explanations, and from there into our Dhamma consciousness. In this predicament, the reasonable course is to adopt, as a temporary corrective, a negative criterion. When the commentaries offer an explanation that is not clearly supported by the text, we should assume as a working hypothesis that it is probably wrong.

Internal Attestation: This is the most basic reason for even raising the possibility that the suttas are the Buddha’s words – they say so. Obviously not everything that claims to come from the Buddha is genuine. But it is safe enough to assume the reverse: if a text does not claim to be the Buddha’s words it is probably not. 

Extracting meaning from variation: Typically the traditions ascribe variations in the Buddha’s teaching to the Buddha’s undoubted skill in suiting his teaching to the proclivities of individuals. But often this is not so much an explaining as an explaining away. Most of the suttas seem to have been delivered to large, general audiences, so unless the text specifically indicates that it is targeted for a particular individual or group we can assume they were meant to be generally applicable. Variation, therefore, should be analysed in terms of textual or doctrinal development. We should not assume that the suttas are internally consistent; this is another hypothesis to be tested. After 2500 years of interpreters who assumed consistency without question, we may well arrive at more interesting results by adopting a very literal hypothesis that surface variations do indeed imply deep level contradictions. If such analysis produces meaningful results the argument from the ‘proclivities of individuals’ becomes redundant.

Form over content: Although formal analysis of textual matters often appears pedantic and irrelevant, it is actually very useful. We have less deeply ingrained bias and emotional investment in formal matters than in Dhamma issues, so for the sake of objectivity it is useful to rely primarily on formal criteria, and then infer to doctrinal matters.

Doctrines of the schools: Each of the schools evolved its own doctrinal peculiarities. Where these trends are discernable in the suttas it can indicate lateness.

Sources: The suttas (that is, the literary texts known by that title today) were assembled from the mass of oral teachings floating about in the early Sangha. The process of systematically organizing them only really got going after the Buddha’s passing away. The source material would have included: basic doctrinal statements (eg. the four noble truths); frameworks organizing such statements (eg. the gradual training); miscellaneous verses and sayings; dialogues and discourses uttered on specific occasions; analytical elaborations of basic teachings; background, anecdotal, and historical data. Obviously there is a hierachy of authenticity here. Since the develeloped literary forms commencing with the words ‘thus have I heard’ post-date the Buddha, it is legitmate to enquire how they came to their present form. In some cases, following the pecedent of Biblical criticism, we may reconstruct ‘source’ texts no longer extant. It is useful to consider these sources as manifesting in the final ‘suttas’ in three main levels. I give examples from the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

Level 1 –  Pericopes: Basic doctrinal statements (eg ‘It is just this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samadhi.’)

Level 2 – Discourses: The assemblage of doctrinal statements in a particular form as a teaching attributed to the Buddha. (eg from ‘There are these two extremes…’ to ‘My deliverance is unshakeble. This is my last birth. Now there is no repeated existence.’)

Level 3 – Final text: The completed literary entity. (eg from ‘Thus have I heard’ to ‘And that is how Aññā Koṇḍañña received his name.’)

Although I reluctantly follow contemporary usage and refer to level 3 as ‘suttas’, this is very misleading, as the Buddha had obviously never heard of the level 3 texts. The term ‘sutta’, when used self-referently in the suttas, can refer only to level 1 or 2. The methods of historical criticism generally will penetrate to levels 2 and 3 only, leaving the key doctrines untouched.

Language: Vocabulary and style are key criteria. There is a move from the more natural language of the early suttas to the repetitive and artificial forms of the Abhdhamma period. Later Pali was characterized by long compounds. The evolution of metrical forms provides some basis for dating verses, and might possibly be carried over into prose, too. As an example of vocabulary changing from level 2 to level 3 we can note that bhikkhave (monks!) and bhante (venerable sir) of level 2 often become formalized into bhikkhavo and the slightly pompous bhadante in level 3. Bhikkhave is not standard Pali, so it is likely that it was a colloquial word so closely associated with the Buddha himself that it resisted standardization into bhikkhavo.

Formation of the Nikayas: It seems that usually monks would specialize in studying one or the other of the four Nikayas, so the Nikayas are arranged so that key teachings are found in each Nikaya. Teachings found in only one or two Nikayas, therefore, should not be regarded as central. Each of the four Nikayas, however, has its own flavour. It seems that each was designed to fulfill a certain function within the emerging religion, and this should be seen to reflect the personalities of those who chose to specialize in a particular field. The Digha emphasizes legendary and anti-brahmanical material, and was likely used for propoganda and conversion. The Majjhima contains a deep and broad doctrinal range, and probably served as the main monastic syllabus. The Samyutta is more technical and would have been the domain of the intellectuals and doctrinal specialists. The Anguttara is simpler and more lay-orientated, and would have been used for preaching. Each Nikaya also includes much material contrasting with its overall flavour.

Contexts: Any religious, spiritual, or philosophical movement must inevitably emerge in a certain historical/cultural/ideological/linguistic context. Early Buddhism maintained a close, conscious interchange with the many other religious schools in the vibrant intellectual culture of the time. The teachings can best be appreciated as a response to these conditions. The Buddha knew the Vedic and Jain traditions, but he had never heard of the Abhidhamma, the Visuddhimagga, or the Mahayana sutras. 

https://sites.google.com/site/santipada/it%27stime
"Holmes once said not to allow your judgement to be biased by personal qualities, and emotional qualities are antagonistic to clear reasoning."
~ Shinichi Kudo a.k.a Conan Edogawa

Offline dilbert

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #9 on: 23 January 2014, 01:17:01 PM »
Sebagai bahan tambahan yg berkaitan dg topik ini, berikut ada artikel menarik dari Bhikkhu Sujato:

4.       The suttas and vinaya refer to themselves and to each other, but not to the abhidhamma or to any other literature.


Bhikkhuni Vibhanga, Vinaya Pitaka :

…PAÑHAM PUCCHEYYÂTI SUTTANTE OKÂSAM KÂRÂPETVÂ VINAYAM VÂ ABHIDHAMMAM VÂ PUCCHATI ÂPATTI PÂCITTIYASSA, VINAYE OKÂSAM KÂRÂPETVA SUTTANTAM VÂ ABHIDHAMMAM VÂ PUCCHATI ÂPATTI PÂCITTIYASSA, ABHIDHAMME OKÂSAM KÂRÂPETVA SUTTANTAM VÂ VINAYAM VÂ PUCCHATI ÂPATTI PÂCITTIYASSA...

Seorang bhikkhuni yang mengajukan suatu pertanyaan kepada bhikkhu haruslah sesuai dengan kesempatan yang dimohonkan. Apabila memohon kesempatan untuk mengajukan pertanyaan tentang Sutta tetapi kemudian berbalik mempertanyakan Vinaya atau Abhidhamma; bhikkhuni tersebut melanggar Pâcittiya.

Apabila memohon kesempatan untuk mengajukan pertanyaan tentang Vinaya tetapi kemudian berbalik mempertanyakan Sutta atau Abhidhamma; bhikkhuni tersebut melanggar Pâcittiya.

Apabila memohon kesempatan untuk mengajukan pertanyaan tentang Abhidhamma tetapi kemudian berbalik mempertanyakan Sutta atau Vinaya; bhikkhuni tersebut melangar Pâcittiya...
VAYADHAMMA SANKHARA APPAMADENA SAMPADETHA
Semua yang berkondisi tdak kekal adanya, berjuanglah dengan penuh kewaspadaan

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #10 on: 23 January 2014, 01:51:23 PM »
What is myth? In my opinion, all the
old myths – and here I’m speaking
primarily of those originating before
the 1 st millenium BCE – were
originally inspired by true events.
They were the news, the gossip, the
family sagas of the day. They came
to life in the hands of the
storytellers and bards. The stories
that survived were those that struck
a chord in consciousness. Each time
they were retold, the tellers would
embellish or alter a little; and when
the changes resonated with the
audience they would be passed on,
and so the myths evolved by a sort
of natural selection of thought, a
little bird of story soaring in the sky
of the mind. There was no question
of any individual deliberately
creating their own stories. The myths
were communal creations. This is
why they offer such wonderfully
direct insight into the consciousness
of the times. There seems to not yet
have been the idea of an objective
standard of truth; no distiction
between how things could be, or
should be, and how they really are.
There was, therefore, no question of
the myths being taken as literal,
objective truth – the tellers of the
stories would not have understood
what that meant. The myths were
projections of the people’s fears,
desires, hopes, joys, and anguishes
into the world outside.
But in the ‘axial age’ around the
middle of the 1st millenium BCE a
new idea began to be born.
Knowledge became something that
was not just inherited, but reflected
upon and consciously revised. A new
rational consciousness emerged,
supplanting the old mythic
consciousness. The most brilliant of
the rational cultures were the
Greeks, specializing in external
science, and the Indians,
specializing in inner science. Both
realized that truth is an elusive
thing and so they devised special
techniques for its apprehension; in
Greece, reason and logic; and in
India the science of meditative
insight. Either way, myth would
never be the same again.
The fields of cultural endeavour in
the West became split in two. One
branch, loosely called ‘science’, dealt
with the objective investigation into
the external, material world. The
second branch, loosely called ‘the
arts’, dealt with the expression of
inner feelings and perspectives.
‘Fiction’ was born, the deliberate
creation of stories that both the
author and the reader realize are
not true. Fiction is a private
undertaking. It can never be free
from irony, self-consciousness, and
personal quirks; thus its usefulness
as a psychological record is of a
different order than myth.
But now that the original domain of
myth became split in two, it became
possible to investigate myth with
science, to inquire as to what extent
myths were literal, objective history.
Again, the field split in two. For
those commited to the search for the
real, it soon became obvious that
the myths are highly unreliable
quides to history, and that new, non-
literal, symbolic methods of
interpretation must be developed in
order to tease out the truth. This
process started early; by the 5 th
century BCE in both Greece and
India the old myths were being
questioned, denied, or even
ridiculed. In fact, the history of
humanity is almost by definition the
history of the ending of the myths,
the slow and agonizing death of
God.
Inevitably the reaction set in.
Threatened and fearful, some
insisted that the myths were literal
objective reality – a claim that I
believe would have been
incomprehensible in the age the
myths were born. So came the great
reversal. After the axial age
witnessed the flowering of the spirit
of reason in humanity’s most
brilliant cultural inflourescence, we
fell into the Dark Ages. Across both
Europe and Asia the medieval period
saw the transformation of democratic
experiments into absolute
autocracies; the spirit of inquiry into
dogmatic orthodoxies; freedom of
speech and thought into creedal
conformity; the experience of
liberation into the rote learning of
scholastic curricula; spiritual life as
a ‘calling out’ to transcend petty
boundaries of self, of tribe, of nation
into religion as bureaucratic,
patriachal, hierachical institutions
for the buttressing of national
identity and state power.
As time goes on, and the events portrayed in the myths recede
further into the conveniently mysterious past, the myths become more and more incongruous. They must be maintained by an ever shriller incantation. Exclusivity gives way to intolerance; intolerance leads to alienation and tribal prejudice;then comes hostility, blind hatred, and ultimately murderous fury. The mythic consciousness becomes so out of touch with reality that it is not merely dysfunctional, but actually insane.


A well documented case of this in Buddhism is Japanese Zen. The hierachy evolved a myth that identified the Emperor, the Sun-god, as an emanation of the primordial Buddha. The bulk of the
Zen establishment for a hundred years encouraged the notion that to kill or die for the Emperor was a sacred act. This was a key support for the warrior culture that erupted in the barbarism of the Pacific theatre of the Second World War, leaving tens of millions dead, probably more than the crusades or jihad, amid some of the worst atrocities imaginable.

https://sites.google.com/site/santipada/it'stime

Selain cerita Abhidahamma yang terlalu berlebihan,  juga ada perjanjian antara Sang Buddha Gautama dan YA Ananda ketika mengangkar YA Ananda menjadi pelayan dari Sang Buddha Gautama.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2014, 02:24:57 PM by kullatiro »

Offline kullatiro

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #11 on: 23 January 2014, 02:43:56 PM »
pernyataan kotbah abhidhamma selama berhari hari dan Sang Buddha turun setiap hari untuk makan dsb kemudian kembali ke surga terang terang untuk mengesampingkan YA Ananda yang belum mencapai kesucian pertama dan tidak memiliki kesaktian kecuali ingatan nya yang sangat kuat diantara siswa sang Buddha.


Pertanyaan wa, apakah pra syarat yang di.ajukan YA Ananda dan diterima oleh Sang.Buddha Gautama dapat dengan mudah di kesampingkan dan di Ingkari oleh Sang.Buddha Gautama? tentu tidak bukan.

Offline The Ronald

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #12 on: 23 January 2014, 03:16:29 PM »
pernyataan kotbah abhidhamma selama berhari hari dan Sang Buddha turun setiap hari untuk makan dsb kemudian kembali ke surga terang terang untuk mengesampingkan YA Ananda yang belum mencapai kesucian pertama dan tidak memiliki kesaktian kecuali ingatan nya yang sangat kuat diantara siswa sang Buddha.


Pertanyaan wa, apakah pra syarat yang di.ajukan YA Ananda dan diterima oleh Sang.Buddha Gautama dapat dengan mudah di kesampingkan dan di Ingkari oleh Sang.Buddha Gautama? tentu tidak bukan.

ini menarik krn menurut kisahnya yg diulangi Ananda..sudah tertuang di sutta pitaka...
...

Offline kullatiro

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #13 on: 23 January 2014, 03:24:52 PM »
yah!, gitu dah ada yang melakukan tempering antara kisah asli + tambahan jadi lah aspal.

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #14 on: 23 January 2014, 03:25:40 PM »

Selain cerita Abhidahamma yang terlalu berlebihan,  juga ada perjanjian antara Sang Buddha Gautama dan YA Ananda ketika mengangkar YA Ananda menjadi pelayan dari Sang Buddha Gautama.


Cerita abhidhamma-nya berlebihan dimana ?
VAYADHAMMA SANKHARA APPAMADENA SAMPADETHA
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #15 on: 23 January 2014, 03:38:48 PM »
coba apa saja prasyarat yang diajukan YA Ananda kepada Sang Buddha Gautama.

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #16 on: 23 January 2014, 06:28:59 PM »
pernyataan kotbah abhidhamma selama berhari hari dan Sang Buddha turun setiap hari untuk makan dsb kemudian kembali ke surga terang terang untuk mengesampingkan YA Ananda yang belum mencapai kesucian pertama dan tidak memiliki kesaktian kecuali ingatan nya yang sangat kuat diantara siswa sang Buddha.


Pertanyaan wa, apakah pra syarat yang di.ajukan YA Ananda dan diterima oleh Sang.Buddha Gautama dapat dengan mudah di kesampingkan dan di Ingkari oleh Sang.Buddha Gautama? tentu tidak bukan.

Kisah bagaimana Bhikkhu Ananda menjadi pelayan tetap Sang Buddha versi Sarvastivada yang ditemukan dalam MA (Madhyama Agama) sutta 33 sedikit berbeda karena di sini Bhikkhu Ananda hanya mengajukan 3 permintaan: agar ia diizinkan untuk tidak memakai jubah baru maupun bekas yang diberikan kepada Sang Buddha, tidak memakan makanan yang disiapkan khusus untuk Sang Buddha, dan tidak menemui Sang Buddha pada waktu yang tidak tepat. [Bandingkan dengan versi Theravada yang menyatakan Bhikkhu Ananda mengajukan 8 permintaan]
"Holmes once said not to allow your judgement to be biased by personal qualities, and emotional qualities are antagonistic to clear reasoning."
~ Shinichi Kudo a.k.a Conan Edogawa

Offline xenocross

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #17 on: 23 January 2014, 09:57:32 PM »
Kisah bagaimana Bhikkhu Ananda menjadi pelayan tetap Sang Buddha versi Sarvastivada yang ditemukan dalam MA (Madhyama Agama) sutta 33 sedikit berbeda karena di sini Bhikkhu Ananda hanya mengajukan 3 permintaan: agar ia diizinkan untuk tidak memakai jubah baru maupun bekas yang diberikan kepada Sang Buddha, tidak memakan makanan yang disiapkan khusus untuk Sang Buddha, dan tidak menemui Sang Buddha pada waktu yang tidak tepat. [Bandingkan dengan versi Theravada yang menyatakan Bhikkhu Ananda mengajukan 8 permintaan]

?????
Kalau ada perbedaan nikaya/agama, hanya ada 2 kemungkinan
1. Dipangkas
2. Ditambahkan

Kalau (1), artinya sekte tersebut mau mengatakan bahwa ada sutta yg ananda tidak tahu, dan menambahkan sutta karya belakangan.

Kalau (2), artinya sekte tersebut mau membenarkan koleksi sutta versi mereka dengan mengatakan bahwa koleksi sutta mereka sudah lengkap. Biarpun ditambahkan belakangan juga, itu dijustifikasi dengan perkataan "diingat oleh YA Ananda"

Mungkin ada kemungkinan lain? Ini konsekuensinya lumayan besar juga ya, soalnya selama ini kan dibilang semua sutta pasti diketahui Ananda dan diulang di Konsili I
Satu saat dari pikiran yang dikuasai amarah membakar kebaikan yang telah dikumpulkan selama berkalpa-kalpa.
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #18 on: 23 January 2014, 10:16:22 PM »
masalah lain di konsili I ini ada catatan tentang permintaan maaf dari yang Ariya Ananda, permintaan maaf tentang kealpaan minor aturan yang boleh di hilang kan kepada sang Buddha Gautama (dalam hal ini lebih tepat nya permintaan maaf kepada Yang Ariya Upali), kemudian Permintaan maaf tentang berdirinya sangha Bhikkuni dll tapi tidak ada permintaan maaf tentang Abhidhamma pitaka sama sekali.

bila menurut arkeologi Abhidhamma muncul pada konsili III dan IV (versi Theravada) jadi YA Sariputra hidup nya berapa tahun? apakah Ratusan tahun dan apa benar YA Sariputra ada mengulang Abhidhamma pitaka pada konsili I tersebut?

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #19 on: 23 January 2014, 10:16:59 PM »
masalah lain di konsili I ini ada catatan tentang permintaan maaf dari yang Ariya Ananda, permintaan maaf tentang kealpaan minor aturan yang boleh di hilang kan kepada sang Buddha Gautama (dalam hal ini lebih tepat nya permintaan maaf kepada Yang Ariya Upali), kemudian Permintaan maaf tentang berdirinya sangha Bhikkuni dll tapi tidak ada permintaan maaf tentang Abhidhamma pitaka sama sekali.

bila menurut arkeologi Abhidhamma muncul pada konsili III dan IV (versi Theravada) jadi YA Sariputra hidup nya berapa tahun? apakah Ratusan tahun dan apa benar YA Sariputra ada mengulang Abhidhamma pitaka pada konsili I tersebut?

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #20 on: 23 January 2014, 10:43:45 PM »
masalah lain di konsili I ini ada catatan tentang permintaan maaf dari yang Ariya Ananda, permintaan maaf tentang kealpaan minor aturan yang boleh di hilang kan kepada sang Buddha Gautama (dalam hal ini lebih tepat nya permintaan maaf kepada Yang Ariya Upali), kemudian Permintaan maaf tentang berdirinya sangha Bhikkuni dll tapi tidak ada permintaan maaf tentang Abhidhamma pitaka sama sekali.

bila menurut arkeologi Abhidhamma muncul pada konsili III dan IV (versi Theravada) jadi YA Sariputra hidup nya berapa tahun? apakah Ratusan tahun dan apa benar YA Sariputra ada mengulang Abhidhamma pitaka pada konsili I tersebut?

Kalau masalah sangha bhikkhuni, mungkin memang benar, karena katanya banyak bhikkhu gak suka berdirinya sangha bhikkhuni. Kan YA Ananda bilang "saya tidak melihatnya sebagai kesalahan".
Dari sini aja kita udah bisa menduga-duga latar belakang masalah aturan-aturan diskriminatif yang katanya ditambahkan kemudian. Kalau pendirian sangha bhikkhuni aja adalah "suatu kesalahan", maka logis kalau kemudian ada aturan2 yang ditambahkan belakangan.

Konon katanya Abhidhamma diulang oleh YA Mahakassapa. Karena kita tahu YA Sariputta sudah parinibbana beberapa bulan sebelumnya. Lumayan menarik mengingat di sutta-sutta YA Mahakassapa tidak dikenal sebagai yang suka mengajar, beliau terkenal sebagai yang praktek duthanga dan meditasi.

Tapi masalah konsili I ini, semua aliran mengakui bahwa ada konsili. Kalau di legenda Tibet, dikatakan bahwa pada waktu pengulangan sutta oleh Ananda, 499 bhikkhu lainnya menumpuk jubah luar mereka menjadi sebuah tahta tinggi untuk Ananda, demikianlah mereka menghormati Ananda. Maka dalam tradisi Tibet, ketika seorang guru mengajar dharma, dia melakukannya dari sebuah tahta yang tinggi, untuk menghormati kualitas dharma.
Satu saat dari pikiran yang dikuasai amarah membakar kebaikan yang telah dikumpulkan selama berkalpa-kalpa.
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #21 on: 24 January 2014, 08:57:54 AM »
bila kita melihat konsili I, yang di hadiri 500 Arahat.

Setelah mengulang vinaya Pitaka oleh YA upali; tentu nya akan ada pertanyaan kepada YA Upali "yang mana merupakan aturan minor yang dapat di hilang kan" hal ini tentu nya di luar kapasitas YA Upali dimana serbuan pertanyan dari banyak Arahat yang hadir jadi permintaan maaf YA Ananda tentang aturan minor adalah hal yang wajar karena secara tidak sengaja telah membuat susah YA Upali. tentu nya YA Ananda berpikir YA Upali mengetahui tentang aturan minor ini tapi kenyataan nya YA Upali tidak mengetahui tentang aturan minor yang di maksud Sang Buddha Gautama tersebut.

Tentang Sangha Bhikuni menjadi pertanyaan apakah yang hadir  500 Arahat adalah para Bhikku semua?  ada kah YA Arahat dari para Bhikuni turut Hadir? bila ada maka permintaan maaf tentang Berdiri nya Sangha Bhikkuni menjadi lebih wajar.

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #22 on: 24 January 2014, 08:58:44 AM »
bila kita melihat konsili I, yang di hadiri 500 Arahat.

Setelah mengulang vinaya Pitaka oleh YA upali; tentu nya akan ada pertanyaan kepada YA Upali "yang mana merupakan aturan minor yang dapat di hilang kan" hal ini tentu nya di luar kapasitas YA Upali dimana serbuan pertanyan dari banyak Arahat yang hadir jadi permintaan maaf YA Ananda tentang aturan minor adalah hal yang wajar karena secara tidak sengaja telah membuat susah YA Upali. tentu nya YA Ananda berpikir YA Upali mengetahui tentang aturan minor ini tapi kenyataan nya YA Upali tidak mengetahui tentang aturan minor yang di maksud Sang Buddha Gautama tersebut.

Tentang Sangha Bhikuni menjadi pertanyaan apakah yang hadir  500 Arahat adalah para Bhikku semua?  ada kah YA Arahat dari para Bhikuni turut Hadir? bila ada maka permintaan maaf tentang Berdiri nya Sangha Bhikkuni menjadi lebih wajar.

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #23 on: 24 January 2014, 10:16:47 AM »
Cerita mengenai Konsili I itupun sebenarnya adalah cerita yang disusun saat konsili II, oleh 700 bhikkhu
Konsili II utamanya adalah menyusun vinaya, tapi lucu sekali mereka juga menyusun vinaya bhikkhuni tapi tidak melibatkan satupun bhikkhuni. Bhante Sujato mengatakan bahwa inilah masalahnya, bhikkhu2 yang terlibat dalam konsili II ini yang mendiskriminasi bhikkhuni

Dan ketika mereka menyusun vinaya dan catatan mengenai konsili I, cerita mereka adalah, "pasti inilah yang terjadi waktu itu".
Sama sekali tidak ada maksud berbohong karena mereka yakin dengan versi mereka. Tetapi karena kejadian-kejadian sebenarnya masih dekat dalam ingatan, hal-hal tersebut muncul dalam cerita, dan kemudian menjadi sebuah keanehan ketika kita baca dan pikirkan dengan cermat.

selanjutnya baca di https://sites.google.com/site/santipada/ambiguity
Satu saat dari pikiran yang dikuasai amarah membakar kebaikan yang telah dikumpulkan selama berkalpa-kalpa.
~ Mahavairocana Sutra

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #24 on: 24 January 2014, 10:48:57 AM »
ānanda's popularity, however, did
not save him from the recriminations
of his fellows for some of his actions,
which, in their eyes, constituted
offences. Thus he was charged
(Vin. ii.288-9) with:

(1) having failed
to find out from the Buddha which
were the lesser and minor precepts
which the Sangha were allowed to
revoke if they thought fit (See
D. ii.154);

(2) with having stepped on
the Buddha's rainy-season garment
when sewing it;

(3) with having
allowed the Buddha's body to be
first saluted by women (not
mentioned elsewhere, but see
Rockhill, op. cit., p.154);

(4) with having omitted to ask the Buddha to live on for the space of a kappa
(D. ii.115); and

(5) with having exerted himself to procure the admission of women into the Order (Vin. ii.253).

ānanda's reply was that he himself
saw no fault in any of these acts, but
that he would confess them as faults
out of faith in his colleagues.

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/aa/aananda.htm

 All the great disciples offered their
services, but were rejected by the
Buddha. Ānanda alone was left; he
sat in silence. When asked why he
did not offer himself, his reply was
that the Buddha knew best whom to
choose. When the Buddha signified
that he desired to have Ānanda, the
latter agreed to accept the post on
certain conditions. The Buddha was
never to give him any choice food or
garment (*) gotten by him, nor
appoint for him a separate "fragrant
cell" (residence), nor include him in
the invitations accepted by the
Buddha. For, he said, if the Buddha
did any of these things, some would
say that Ānanda's services to the
Buddha were done in order to get
clothes, good fare and lodging and
be included in the invitations.
Further he was to be allowed to
accept invitations on behalf of the
Buddha; to bring to the Buddha
those who came to see him from
afar; to place before the Buddha all
his perplexities, and the Buddha was to repeat to him any doctrine taught in his absence . If these concessions were not granted, he said, some would ask where was the advantage of such service. Only if these
privileges were allowed him would people trust him and realise that the Buddha had real regard for him. The Buddha agreed to the conditions.

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #25 on: 24 January 2014, 11:58:41 AM »
?????
Kalau ada perbedaan nikaya/agama, hanya ada 2 kemungkinan
1. Dipangkas
2. Ditambahkan

Kalau (1), artinya sekte tersebut mau mengatakan bahwa ada sutta yg ananda tidak tahu, dan menambahkan sutta karya belakangan.

Kalau (2), artinya sekte tersebut mau membenarkan koleksi sutta versi mereka dengan mengatakan bahwa koleksi sutta mereka sudah lengkap. Biarpun ditambahkan belakangan juga, itu dijustifikasi dengan perkataan "diingat oleh YA Ananda"

Mungkin ada kemungkinan lain? Ini konsekuensinya lumayan besar juga ya, soalnya selama ini kan dibilang semua sutta pasti diketahui Ananda dan diulang di Konsili I

Kalo versi Theravada tentang Bhikkhu Ananda menjadi pelayan tetap tidak dimasukkan dalam Nikaya, melainkan berasal dari komentar; jadi MA 33 itu tidak ada padanan suttanya dalam Nikaya Pali.

Secara garis besar, MA 33 yang diberi judul "Kotbah tentang [Bagaimana Ananda Menjadi] Pelayan" isinya memuji kualitas Bhikkhu Ananda yang narasinya dimulai dari sejak Bhikkhu Ananda ditunjuk sebagai pelayan tetap sampai pencapaian Kearahatan dan Parinibbana-nya Bhikkhu Ananda setelah Sang Buddha Parinibbbana di mana tiap kualitas yang disebutkan diakhiri dengan kalimat "Bahwa Yang Mulia Ananda .... [kualitas yang disebutkan], inilah yang dikatakan sebagai kualitas luar biasa dari Yang Mulia Ananda." Anehnya, kejadian dari Bhikkhu Ananda menjadi pelayan tetap sampai Parinibbana-nya dikatakan tsb dikisahkan oleh Sang Buddha sendiri karena pada sutta tersebut diakhiri dengan kalimat: "Itulah apa yang dikatakan Sang Buddha dan para bhikkhu bergembira menerimanya."

IMO, sepertinya MA 33 ini adalah tambahan yang dimasukkan Sarvastivada ke dalam Agama, namun untuk versi permintaan yang diajukan Bhikkhu Ananda kayaknya lebih otentik dibandingkan versi Theravada.
« Last Edit: 24 January 2014, 12:02:13 PM by Shinichi »
"Holmes once said not to allow your judgement to be biased by personal qualities, and emotional qualities are antagonistic to clear reasoning."
~ Shinichi Kudo a.k.a Conan Edogawa

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #26 on: 24 January 2014, 01:23:18 PM »
Kalo versi Theravada tentang Bhikkhu Ananda menjadi pelayan tetap tidak dimasukkan dalam Nikaya, melainkan berasal dari komentar; jadi MA 33 itu tidak ada padanan suttanya dalam Nikaya Pali.

Secara garis besar, MA 33 yang diberi judul "Kotbah tentang [Bagaimana Ananda Menjadi] Pelayan" isinya memuji kualitas Bhikkhu Ananda yang narasinya dimulai dari sejak Bhikkhu Ananda ditunjuk sebagai pelayan tetap sampai pencapaian Kearahatan dan Parinibbana-nya Bhikkhu Ananda setelah Sang Buddha Parinibbbana di mana tiap kualitas yang disebutkan diakhiri dengan kalimat "Bahwa Yang Mulia Ananda .... [kualitas yang disebutkan], inilah yang dikatakan sebagai kualitas luar biasa dari Yang Mulia Ananda." Anehnya, kejadian dari Bhikkhu Ananda menjadi pelayan tetap sampai Parinibbana-nya dikatakan tsb dikisahkan oleh Sang Buddha sendiri karena pada sutta tersebut diakhiri dengan kalimat: "Itulah apa yang dikatakan Sang Buddha dan para bhikkhu bergembira menerimanya."

IMO, sepertinya MA 33 ini adalah tambahan yang dimasukkan Sarvastivada ke dalam Agama, namun untuk versi permintaan yang diajukan Bhikkhu Ananda kayaknya lebih otentik dibandingkan versi Theravada.
Mungkin juga dalam versi lain, Ananda memang sudah Arahant sebelum masa konsili I, berbeda dengan versi Theravada. Kalau di sutra-sutra Mahayana belakangan juga Ananda memang dibilang sudah Arahant pada masa Buddha.

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #27 on: 24 January 2014, 01:26:32 PM »
Cerita mengenai Konsili I itupun sebenarnya adalah cerita yang disusun saat konsili II, oleh 700 bhikkhu
Konsili II utamanya adalah menyusun vinaya, tapi lucu sekali mereka juga menyusun vinaya bhikkhuni tapi tidak melibatkan satupun bhikkhuni. Bhante Sujato mengatakan bahwa inilah masalahnya, bhikkhu2 yang terlibat dalam konsili II ini yang mendiskriminasi bhikkhuni

Dan ketika mereka menyusun vinaya dan catatan mengenai konsili I, cerita mereka adalah, "pasti inilah yang terjadi waktu itu".
Sama sekali tidak ada maksud berbohong karena mereka yakin dengan versi mereka. Tetapi karena kejadian-kejadian sebenarnya masih dekat dalam ingatan, hal-hal tersebut muncul dalam cerita, dan kemudian menjadi sebuah keanehan ketika kita baca dan pikirkan dengan cermat.

selanjutnya baca di https://sites.google.com/site/santipada/ambiguity

ada cross-logical-failure di-sini... Kalau peserta konsili adalah para-arahat... maka tidak ada yang nama-nya arahat itu perilaku-nya diskriminasi (dalam hal ber-itikad akusala / negatif).

Jika para peserta konsili bukan-arahat, maka jangan pula mempercayai kitab-kitab-nya, dan tidak usah per-debat-kan lagi kitab yang mana adalah valid ajaran Buddha atau bukan ? karena toh para peserta konsili bukan arahat.
VAYADHAMMA SANKHARA APPAMADENA SAMPADETHA
Semua yang berkondisi tdak kekal adanya, berjuanglah dengan penuh kewaspadaan

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #28 on: 24 January 2014, 01:27:28 PM »
Mungkin juga dalam versi lain, Ananda memang sudah Arahant sebelum masa konsili I, berbeda dengan versi Theravada. Kalau di sutra-sutra Mahayana belakangan juga Ananda memang dibilang sudah Arahant pada masa Buddha.

Gak om, karena MA 33 jelas memberikan waktu kronologis kejadiannya ("Lagi, tak lama setelah Sang Buddha Parinibbana....")
"Holmes once said not to allow your judgement to be biased by personal qualities, and emotional qualities are antagonistic to clear reasoning."
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #29 on: 24 January 2014, 01:36:54 PM »
ada cross-logical-failure di-sini... Kalau peserta konsili adalah para-arahat... maka tidak ada yang nama-nya arahat itu perilaku-nya diskriminasi (dalam hal ber-itikad akusala / negatif).

Jika para peserta konsili bukan-arahat, maka jangan pula mempercayai kitab-kitab-nya, dan tidak usah per-debat-kan lagi kitab yang mana adalah valid ajaran Buddha atau bukan ? karena toh para peserta konsili bukan arahat.

loh bukan nya di jataka atahakata ada cerita arahat yang masih bisa salah hingga Sang Buddha memperbaikinya.

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Cullakasetthi Jataka
« Reply #30 on: 24 January 2014, 02:15:41 PM »
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j1/j1007.htm

 the latter had learned by heart
many words of the Buddha, and was
old enough, he was admitted a full
Brother. He now gave himself up to earnest thought till he won
Arahatship;
and as he passed his
days in the enjoyment of Insight and
the Paths, he thought whether he
could not impart the like happiness
to Little Wayman. So he went to his
grandfather the merchant, and said,
"Great merchant, with your consent,
I will admit Little Wayman to the
Order." "Pray do so, reverend sir,"
was the reply.
.
.
.
dst

coba dah di baca cerita cullaka setthi jataka ini, meskipun tanpa ada niat jahat seorang Arahat masih memungkin melakukan kesalahan.
« Last Edit: 24 January 2014, 02:40:47 PM by kullatiro »

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #31 on: 24 January 2014, 02:52:00 PM »
Gak om, karena MA 33 jelas memberikan waktu kronologis kejadiannya ("Lagi, tak lama setelah Sang Buddha Parinibbana....")
Oh, berarti memang tidak konsisten sendiri yah. Atau sepertinya ada penambahan belakangan, karena salah satu ciri khas tambahan belakangan suka ga konsisten dengan produk awal. Lupa sync. ;D


loh bukan nya di jataka atahakata ada cerita arahat yang masih bisa salah hingga Sang Buddha memperbaikinya.
Tidak jauh-jauh, dari DhA kita tahu Pindola Bharadvaja, Arahant dengan raungan singa terunggul, masih disamakan seperti pelacur oleh Buddha dalam konteks "memperlihatkan kesaktian". Jadi Arahant secara duniawi masih bisa melakukan hal yang salah. Secara noda batin, rata-rata mengakui Arahant sudah sempurna, walaupun kemungkinan kemerosotan batin Arahant juga jadi perbedaan antar sekte.
« Last Edit: 24 January 2014, 02:57:01 PM by Kainyn_Kutho »

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #32 on: 24 January 2014, 03:22:02 PM »
wa sebenarnya masih ada pertanyaan tentang Abhidhama pitaka ini.

Bila kita pikir YA Sariputra menerima Abhidhamma pitaka maka pertanyaan nya murid murid utama Buddha Lain nya Apakah ada menerima pitaka lain nya, seperti Mogalana, Rahula, Pajapati Gotami dll


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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #33 on: 24 January 2014, 06:31:07 PM »
wa sebenarnya masih ada pertanyaan tentang Abhidhama pitaka ini.

Bila kita pikir YA Sariputra menerima Abhidhamma pitaka maka pertanyaan nya murid murid utama Buddha Lain nya Apakah ada menerima pitaka lain nya, seperti Mogalana, Rahula, Pajapati Gotami dll


Secara logika, jika Buddha ada mengajarkan satu ajaran untuk eksklusif kelompok tertentu, yah tidak menutup kemungkinan ada mengajarkan ajaran lain untuk eksklusif kelompok lainnya.

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #34 on: 24 January 2014, 06:51:59 PM »
Oh, berarti memang tidak konsisten sendiri yah. Atau sepertinya ada penambahan belakangan, karena salah satu ciri khas tambahan belakangan suka ga konsisten dengan produk awal. Lupa sync. ;D


Yups :)

Bagian awalnya memang cukup otentik, tetapi sisanya tampaknya tambahan belakangan karena tidak sinkron dengan narasi di bagian awalnya:

Bagian awal MA 33 mengisahkan Sang Buddha yang sudah tua mencari pelayan tetap. Satu per satu para bhikkhu senior mengajukan diri, tetapi ditolak Sang Buddha karena mereka sendiri sudah tua juga. Lalu Bhikkhu Moggallana dengan kekuatan batinnya mengetahui bahwa Sang Buddha menghendaki agar Bhikkhu Ananda menjadi pelayan tetap dan membujuk Ananda agar mau menjadi pelayan tetap. Setelah Ananda mengajukan 3 permintaan, Sang Buddha menjelaskan kepada Moggallana tentang kualitas-kualitas luar biasa dari Ananda.

Dari sini tiba-tiba narasinya berubah dari perkataan Sang Buddha menjadi perkataan Ananda sendiri (Yang Mulia Ananda telah mengatakan: "Teman-teman Yang Mulia, saya telah melayani Sang Buddha selama dua puluh lima tahun...." dst.) Lalu disambung dengan kejadian-kejadian lain sampai pencapaian Kearahantaan dan Parinibbana Bhikkhu Ananda di mana kualitas-kualitas luar biasa Ananda disebutkan satu per satu. Akhirnya ditutup lagi dengan perkataan Sang Buddha tadi.

Entah karena salah terjemahan dari Sanskrit ke Mandarin atau memang dari sumber awalnya sudah tidak sinkron
« Last Edit: 24 January 2014, 06:58:57 PM by Shinichi »
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Offline xenocross

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #35 on: 24 January 2014, 10:35:30 PM »
Secara logika, jika Buddha ada mengajarkan satu ajaran untuk eksklusif kelompok tertentu, yah tidak menutup kemungkinan ada mengajarkan ajaran lain untuk eksklusif kelompok lainnya.

Seperti mengajarkan mahayana ke Maitreya dan bodhisattva lain......... :D


tapi serius, ajaran untuk bhikkhuni ada gak ya
Jarang kan di sutta dibilang, "sang bhagava bersama dengan 500 bhikkhuni, mengajar...."
Jangan2 gak dimasukkin ke dalam kanon karena bhikkhuni gak diajak konsili
« Last Edit: 24 January 2014, 10:41:21 PM by xenocross »
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #36 on: 25 January 2014, 12:02:49 AM »
Kalo versi Theravada tentang Bhikkhu Ananda menjadi pelayan tetap tidak dimasukkan dalam Nikaya, melainkan berasal dari komentar; jadi MA 33 itu tidak ada padanan suttanya dalam Nikaya Pali.

Secara garis besar, MA 33 yang diberi judul "Kotbah tentang [Bagaimana Ananda Menjadi] Pelayan" isinya memuji kualitas Bhikkhu Ananda yang narasinya dimulai dari sejak Bhikkhu Ananda ditunjuk sebagai pelayan tetap sampai pencapaian Kearahatan dan Parinibbana-nya Bhikkhu Ananda setelah Sang Buddha Parinibbbana di mana tiap kualitas yang disebutkan diakhiri dengan kalimat "Bahwa Yang Mulia Ananda .... [kualitas yang disebutkan], inilah yang dikatakan sebagai kualitas luar biasa dari Yang Mulia Ananda." Anehnya, kejadian dari Bhikkhu Ananda menjadi pelayan tetap sampai Parinibbana-nya dikatakan tsb dikisahkan oleh Sang Buddha sendiri karena pada sutta tersebut diakhiri dengan kalimat: "Itulah apa yang dikatakan Sang Buddha dan para bhikkhu bergembira menerimanya."

IMO, sepertinya MA 33 ini adalah tambahan yang dimasukkan Sarvastivada ke dalam Agama, namun untuk versi permintaan yang diajukan Bhikkhu Ananda kayaknya lebih otentik dibandingkan versi Theravada.
Pada pertengahan Sutta ini memang Sang Buddha-lah yang memuji kualitas Ananda sebagaimana Beliau ceritakan kepada Maha Moggalana. Jadi pada akhir kotbah mengatakan itu sebagai apa yang dikatakan Sang Buddha masih nyambung. :) Cuma mungkin karena topik Sutta ini adalah tentang Kualitas luar biasa Ananda , maka Ananda menambahkan beberapa point kualitas untuk melengkapi 'kelayakan' dirinya menjadi pelayan Sang Buddha bahkan sampai Buddha mahaparinibbana, di mana hal ini untuk menunjukkan kualitas itu masih tetap dipegang teguh olehnya. 

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #37 on: 25 January 2014, 07:24:54 AM »

tapi serius, ajaran untuk bhikkhuni ada gak ya
Jarang kan di sutta dibilang, "sang bhagava bersama dengan 500 bhikkhuni, mengajar...."
Jangan2 gak dimasukkin ke dalam kanon karena bhikkhuni gak diajak konsili

Yang kutahu cuma kotbah singkat Sang Buddha kepada Bhikkhuni Mahapajapati Gotami dalam AN 8.5 dan Nandakovada Sutta (MN 146) di mana Sang Buddha menunjuk Bhikkhu Nandaka berkotbah kepada lima ratus bhikkhuni di bawah Mahapajapati.

Selain itu, kita juga menjumpai kotbah para bhikkhuni seperti Culavedalla Sutta (MN 44), kumpulan sutta dalam Bhikkhuni Samyutta (SN 5), dan Therigatha (syair para bhikkhuni senior). Kalo para bhikkhuni tidak diikutkan dalam konsili, kira-kira dari mana sutta-sutta ini berasal?
« Last Edit: 25 January 2014, 07:44:15 AM by Shinichi »
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #38 on: 25 January 2014, 07:30:42 AM »
Pada pertengahan Sutta ini memang Sang Buddha-lah yang memuji kualitas Ananda sebagaimana Beliau ceritakan kepada Maha Moggalana. Jadi pada akhir kotbah mengatakan itu sebagai apa yang dikatakan Sang Buddha masih nyambung. :) Cuma mungkin karena topik Sutta ini adalah tentang Kualitas luar biasa Ananda , maka Ananda menambahkan beberapa point kualitas untuk melengkapi 'kelayakan' dirinya menjadi pelayan Sang Buddha bahkan sampai Buddha mahaparinibbana, di mana hal ini untuk menunjukkan kualitas itu masih tetap dipegang teguh olehnya. 

Ya, kalo secara topiknya memang masih nyambung :)

Mungkin juga ini adalah tambahan yang diberikan setelah konsili I (seperti Bakkula Sutta yang juga terdapat dalam MA 34 dan padanan Pali-nya di MN 124), tapi kalo penambahannya oleh Ananda sendiri kenapa tidak ditemukan dalam Nikaya Pali? (Entahlah kalo dalam Agama Sutra aliran lain ditemukan juga karena saya tidak ada ref Agama Sutra yang lain ;D )
« Last Edit: 25 January 2014, 07:35:52 AM by Shinichi »
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #39 on: 25 January 2014, 09:52:20 AM »
Ya, kalo secara topiknya memang masih nyambung :)

Mungkin juga ini adalah tambahan yang diberikan setelah konsili I (seperti Bakkula Sutta yang juga terdapat dalam MA 34 dan padanan Pali-nya di MN 124), tapi kalo penambahannya oleh Ananda sendiri kenapa tidak ditemukan dalam Nikaya Pali? (Entahlah kalo dalam Agama Sutra aliran lain ditemukan juga karena saya tidak ada ref Agama Sutra yang lain ;D )
Sekadar buat perbandingan lagi, di kitab 賢愚經 Xian Yu Jing (Taiso 0202)  juga menyebutkan Ananda mengajukan 3 permintaan. Tapi disebutkan bhw orang yang membaca pikiran Ananda di sini bukan Moggallana, melainkan Aniruddha. Kitab ini lebih jauh mengisahkan bhw tak terhingga asankheyakalpa lalu Ananda sudah melayani Buddha.   

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #40 on: 25 January 2014, 12:11:56 PM »
Sekadar buat perbandingan lagi, di kitab 賢愚經 Xian Yu Jing (Taiso 0202)  juga menyebutkan Ananda mengajukan 3 permintaan. Tapi disebutkan bhw orang yang membaca pikiran Ananda di sini bukan Moggallana, melainkan Aniruddha. Kitab ini lebih jauh mengisahkan bhw tak terhingga asankheyakalpa lalu Ananda sudah melayani Buddha.   

Thx for the info, berarti memang benar versi 3 permintaan dari Sarvastivada lebih otentik daripada versi 8 permintaan dari Theravada walaupun Theravada sudah benar memasukkannya dalam komentar karena kisah pengangkatan pelayan tetap ini tidak bersifat kanonik, sedangkan kualitas mengagumkan dari Bhikkhu Ananda sebagai pelayan tetap dalam versi Pali sudah dimasukkan dalam Mahaparinibbana Sutta
« Last Edit: 25 January 2014, 12:14:47 PM by Shinichi »
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #41 on: 25 January 2014, 01:00:27 PM »
wah ini sangat menarik bila sekte lain tentang pelayanan ananda meskipun tidak lengkap sampai 8 permintaan; pada awalnya sekte selain theravada tidak ada abhidhamma pitaka hingga tidak terjadi kontradiksi.


Tetapi di dalam Theravada sendiri terjadi kontradiksi antara peristiwa pengangkatan YA Ananda dengan cerita awal mula Abhidhamma pitaka.

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #42 on: 25 January 2014, 03:06:02 PM »
wah ini sangat menarik bila sekte lain tentang pelayanan ananda meskipun tidak lengkap sampai 8 permintaan; pada awalnya sekte selain theravada tidak ada abhidhamma pitaka hingga tidak terjadi kontradiksi.


Tetapi di dalam Theravada sendiri terjadi kontradiksi antara peristiwa pengangkatan YA Ananda dengan cerita awal mula Abhidhamma pitaka.

Dalam tradisi Theravada kisah Sang Buddha mengajarkan Abhidhamma di surga Tavatimsa kepada ibu-Nya dan para dewa lainnya sangat terkenal sebagai sumber keotentikan Abhidhamma sebagai ajaran langsung Sang Buddha. Namun demikian, sumber kisah ini berasal dari komentar Sutta Nipata dan Jataka dengan detail yang lebih rinci dalam komentar Dhammapada. Dalam kanon Pali sendiri, hanya ada satu kali penyebutan Sang Buddha mengajar di Tavatimsa, yaitu MN 134  Lomasakangiyabhaddekaratta Sutta yang secara sekilas menyebutkan Sang Buddha mengajarkan penjelasan dan ringkasan Bhaddekaratta Sutta di sana.

Menurut penelitian Bhikkhu Analayo, kisah ini juga ditemukan dalam Samyukta Agama (SA) dari tradisi Mulasarvastivada. Selain itu dapat ditemukan juga dalam Avadanasataka dan Vinaya Mulasarvastivada. Dalam teks Mandarin kisah ini dapat ditemukan dalam Ekottarika Agama (yang diduga berasal dari tradisi Mahasanghika) dan padanan Atthakavagga dari Sutta Nipata dalam bahasa Mandarin.

Selengkapnya bisa dibaca di http://dhammacitta.org/forum/index.php/topic,24191.msg447292.html#msg447292
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #43 on: 25 January 2014, 03:32:06 PM »
Yups :)

Bagian awalnya memang cukup otentik, tetapi sisanya tampaknya tambahan belakangan karena tidak sinkron dengan narasi di bagian awalnya:

Bagian awal MA 33 mengisahkan Sang Buddha yang sudah tua mencari pelayan tetap. Satu per satu para bhikkhu senior mengajukan diri, tetapi ditolak Sang Buddha karena mereka sendiri sudah tua juga. Lalu Bhikkhu Moggallana dengan kekuatan batinnya mengetahui bahwa Sang Buddha menghendaki agar Bhikkhu Ananda menjadi pelayan tetap dan membujuk Ananda agar mau menjadi pelayan tetap. Setelah Ananda mengajukan 3 permintaan, Sang Buddha menjelaskan kepada Moggallana tentang kualitas-kualitas luar biasa dari Ananda.

Dari sini tiba-tiba narasinya berubah dari perkataan Sang Buddha menjadi perkataan Ananda sendiri (Yang Mulia Ananda telah mengatakan: "Teman-teman Yang Mulia, saya telah melayani Sang Buddha selama dua puluh lima tahun...." dst.) Lalu disambung dengan kejadian-kejadian lain sampai pencapaian Kearahantaan dan Parinibbana Bhikkhu Ananda di mana kualitas-kualitas luar biasa Ananda disebutkan satu per satu. Akhirnya ditutup lagi dengan perkataan Sang Buddha tadi.

Entah karena salah terjemahan dari Sanskrit ke Mandarin atau memang dari sumber awalnya sudah tidak sinkron
Iya, aneh juga. Sebetulnya kalau ini dibacakan waktu pengulangan konsili I, tidak aneh juga. Jadi Ananda cerita tentang asal mula pengangkatan jadi pelayan, kemudian lanjut ke Buddha parinibbana sampai pencapaian Arahatta Ananda. Tapi jadi sangat aneh karena di ujungnya ada "demikian yang dikatakan Buddha...". ;D Kelihatannya awalnya memang hanya kisah pengangkatan dan pujian Buddha, kemudian kisah belakangan itu diselipkan kemudian.


Seperti mengajarkan mahayana ke Maitreya dan bodhisattva lain......... :D
Hehe Betul. Prinsip "ajaran ini sudah diajarkan sebelumnya ke kelompok tertentu tapi tidak diketahui secara umum" ini memang sepertinya sukses. Beberapa orang menyadari dan ambil ajaran positifnya saja, namun tidak sedikit yang termakan dongeng sementara isi ajarannya juga ga tau.

Quote
tapi serius, ajaran untuk bhikkhuni ada gak ya
Jarang kan di sutta dibilang, "sang bhagava bersama dengan 500 bhikkhuni, mengajar...."
Jangan2 gak dimasukkin ke dalam kanon karena bhikkhuni gak diajak konsili
Nah, ini juga menarik. Sedikit OOT yah. Saya baca vinaya, asalnya 'kan Gotami menerima 8 peraturan, kemudian Gotami menahbiskan bhikkhuni. Kemudian dalam satu kesempatan Buddha memperbolehkan bhikkhu menahbiskan bhikkhuni. Lalu yang ditahbiskan Gotami mengatakan Gotami tidak ditahbiskan dan mereka juga bukan bhikkhuni sebab bhikkhuni harus ditahbiskan oleh bhikkhu. Tapi diklarifikasi bahwa ketika Gotami menerima 8 peraturan, itu adalah penahbisan (dari Buddha). Kemudian lagi karena bhikkhuni baru berdiri dan banyak yang tidak mengerti tentang dhamma-vinaya, maka yang sudah ditahbis satu sisi (=oleh sangha bhikkhuni) boleh ditahbis lagi di sangha bhikkhu.

Kalau dari ceritanya, sebetulnya awalnya memang tidak selalu bhikkhuni harus ditahbis bhikkhu + bhikkhuni. Setiap peraturannya ada alasan dan latar belakangnya. Jadi jika kondisi berbeda, seharusnya vinayanya juga relatif selama tidak menghilangkan makna intinya, namun tradisi Mahavihara tetap teguh tidak boleh ada bhikkhuni. Ini tentu saja memang otoritas mereka dan bagi yang penganut sekte tersebut harus menghargai keputusan sanghanya, namun kalau saya pribadi merasa aneh saja.

Nah, kemudian kalau dari catatan2 Buddhisme Awal, kita tahu Tamraparniya ini bukan hanya "Vibhajjavada", namun juga campuran dari sebagian Mahisasaka. Sekte ini dikenal diskriminatif terhadap wanita dan menyalahkan wanita atas mundurnya dharma. Apakah mungkin ada pengaruhnya?


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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #44 on: 25 January 2014, 05:39:15 PM »
Thx for the info, berarti memang benar versi 3 permintaan dari Sarvastivada lebih otentik daripada versi 8 permintaan dari Theravada walaupun Theravada sudah benar memasukkannya dalam komentar karena kisah pengangkatan pelayan tetap ini tidak bersifat kanonik, sedangkan kualitas mengagumkan dari Bhikkhu Ananda sebagai pelayan tetap dalam versi Pali sudah dimasukkan dalam Mahaparinibbana Sutta
New info:
仁王护国般若经疏 (The commentary of Prajna Sutra of the Humane King Who Protects His Country), adalah kitab komentar yang dibawakan Master Zhiyi (sesepuh mazhab Tiantai) di masa Dinasti Sui (abad ke-6 M) ,  dalam kitab ini beliau menjelaskan bahwa Ananda mengajukan 4 permintaan. Selain 3 permintaan yang sudah disebutkan sebelumnya, permintaan ke-4 adalah memohon Buddha mengulang khotbah yang sebelumnya belum pernah didengar Ananda. Master Zhiyi sendiri mengatakan 4 permintaan ini mengacu pada kitab 報恩經 (Bao En Jing). Kitab ini entah sama tidak dengan 大方便佛報恩經 (Da FangbianFoBaoEn Jing) (Taiso 156)yang diterjemahkan pada masa Dinasti Han Belakangan.   
Beberapa kitab komentar atas sutra-sutra Mahayana lain pada masa-masa setelah Master Zhiyi juga mengomentari hal yg sama , yakni 4 permintaan, bahkan turut menjelaskan bahwa di Maha Parinirvana Sutra menyebutkan 3 permintaan kemudian mengatakan 4 permintaan mengacu pada Bao En Jing.   

 

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #45 on: 25 January 2014, 06:43:40 PM »
Iya, aneh juga. Sebetulnya kalau ini dibacakan waktu pengulangan konsili I, tidak aneh juga. Jadi Ananda cerita tentang asal mula pengangkatan jadi pelayan, kemudian lanjut ke Buddha parinibbana sampai pencapaian Arahatta Ananda. Tapi jadi sangat aneh karena di ujungnya ada "demikian yang dikatakan Buddha...". ;D Kelihatannya awalnya memang hanya kisah pengangkatan dan pujian Buddha, kemudian kisah belakangan itu diselipkan kemudian.


Iya bisa jadi seperti itu juga ;D

New info:
仁王护国般若经疏 (The commentary of Prajna Sutra of the Humane King Who Protects His Country), adalah kitab komentar yang dibawakan Master Zhiyi (sesepuh mazhab Tiantai) di masa Dinasti Sui (abad ke-6 M) ,  dalam kitab ini beliau menjelaskan bahwa Ananda mengajukan 4 permintaan. Selain 3 permintaan yang sudah disebutkan sebelumnya, permintaan ke-4 adalah memohon Buddha mengulang khotbah yang sebelumnya belum pernah didengar Ananda. Master Zhiyi sendiri mengatakan 4 permintaan ini mengacu pada kitab 報恩經 (Bao En Jing). Kitab ini entah sama tidak dengan 大方便佛報恩經 (Da FangbianFoBaoEn Jing) (Taiso 156)yang diterjemahkan pada masa Dinasti Han Belakangan.   
Beberapa kitab komentar atas sutra-sutra Mahayana lain pada masa-masa setelah Master Zhiyi juga mengomentari hal yg sama , yakni 4 permintaan, bahkan turut menjelaskan bahwa di Maha Parinirvana Sutra menyebutkan 3 permintaan kemudian mengatakan 4 permintaan mengacu pada Bao En Jing.   


Hmmm... Menarik juga berarti sekarang sudah ada 3 versi kisah: Sarvastivada dengan 3 permintaan, Mahayana dengan 4 permintaan, dan Theravada dengan 8 permintaan
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #46 on: 26 January 2014, 09:06:23 AM »
O ya, tentang sifat diskriminatif seorang Arahant terhadap wanita bisa dijumpai dalam Bakkula Sutta yang menyatakan kualitas mengagumkan dari YM Bakkula salah satunya adalah tidak mengajarkan Dhamma kepada para wanita, bahkan dalam riwayat hidup Asoka versi Sarvastivada yang tercatat dalam Asokavadana menyatakan Raja Asoka memberikan ukuran stupa yang kecil untuk relik YM Bakkula dibandingkan stupa relik para siswa Sang Buddha lainnya karena dianggap diskriminatif terhadap wanita. Apakah ini tanda "ketidaksempurnaan" seorang Arahant?
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #47 on: 26 January 2014, 03:45:19 PM »
O ya, tentang sifat diskriminatif seorang Arahant terhadap wanita bisa dijumpai dalam Bakkula Sutta yang menyatakan kualitas mengagumkan dari YM Bakkula salah satunya adalah tidak mengajarkan Dhamma kepada para wanita, bahkan dalam riwayat hidup Asoka versi Sarvastivada yang tercatat dalam Asokavadana menyatakan Raja Asoka memberikan ukuran stupa yang kecil untuk relik YM Bakkula dibandingkan stupa relik para siswa Sang Buddha lainnya karena dianggap diskriminatif terhadap wanita. Apakah ini tanda "ketidaksempurnaan" seorang Arahant?
atau terjadi pergeseran antara ideal seorang arahat dari jaman Buddha ke jaman konsili kedua:
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/3.15-Bakkula-S-m124-piya.pdf

mungkin pergeseran inilah yang menimbulkan ketidaksetujuan dan reaksi sehingga melahirkan gerakan mahayana...
* I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it
* Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #48 on: 28 January 2014, 01:36:34 PM »
Secara logika, jika Buddha ada mengajarkan satu ajaran untuk eksklusif kelompok tertentu, yah tidak menutup kemungkinan ada mengajarkan ajaran lain untuk eksklusif kelompok lainnya.

Bhikkhuni vibhanga (vinaya) secara jelas mengulang sampai 3x soal pelanggaran pacitiya tentang 3 bahasan pertanyaan, yaitu suttanta, vinaya dan abhidhamma... dengan ini bisa dikatakan  bahwa tidak hanya kelompok Sariputra saja yang mempelajari dan menguasai abhidhamma.
VAYADHAMMA SANKHARA APPAMADENA SAMPADETHA
Semua yang berkondisi tdak kekal adanya, berjuanglah dengan penuh kewaspadaan

Offline dilbert

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #49 on: 28 January 2014, 01:37:30 PM »
O ya, tentang sifat diskriminatif seorang Arahant terhadap wanita bisa dijumpai dalam Bakkula Sutta yang menyatakan kualitas mengagumkan dari YM Bakkula salah satunya adalah tidak mengajarkan Dhamma kepada para wanita, bahkan dalam riwayat hidup Asoka versi Sarvastivada yang tercatat dalam Asokavadana menyatakan Raja Asoka memberikan ukuran stupa yang kecil untuk relik YM Bakkula dibandingkan stupa relik para siswa Sang Buddha lainnya karena dianggap diskriminatif terhadap wanita. Apakah ini tanda "ketidaksempurnaan" seorang Arahant?

sama seperti pendapat, seorang sammasambuddha hanya eksklusif seorang manusia berjenis kelamin pria. dan termasuk juga kenapa Buddha sampai menetapkan Garudhamma kepada bhikkhuni, jika memang berdasarkan prinsip ekualitas (kesetaraan), tentu-nya harus sama...

Lihat saja Garudhamma itu... apakah Buddha juga diskriminatif dan merendahkan wanita (bhikkhuni) ?
« Last Edit: 28 January 2014, 01:39:33 PM by dilbert »
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Offline seniya

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #50 on: 28 January 2014, 02:26:07 PM »
sama seperti pendapat, seorang sammasambuddha hanya eksklusif seorang manusia berjenis kelamin pria. dan termasuk juga kenapa Buddha sampai menetapkan Garudhamma kepada bhikkhuni, jika memang berdasarkan prinsip ekualitas (kesetaraan), tentu-nya harus sama...

Lihat saja Garudhamma itu... apakah Buddha juga diskriminatif dan merendahkan wanita (bhikkhuni) ?

Kalo Garudhamma buat para bhikkhuni itu, ada yang berpendapat itu penambahan yang belakangan: http://santifm.org/santipada/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Bhikkhuni_Vinaya_Studies_Bhikkhu_Sujato.html
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Offline dilbert

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #51 on: 28 January 2014, 03:20:13 PM »
Kalo Garudhamma buat para bhikkhuni itu, ada yang berpendapat itu penambahan yang belakangan: http://santifm.org/santipada/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Bhikkhuni_Vinaya_Studies_Bhikkhu_Sujato.html

kayak-nya pendapat bhikkhu sujato yang terus di-muncul-kan.
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Offline seniya

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #52 on: 28 January 2014, 03:28:11 PM »
;D

Kebetulan beliau yg banyak meneliti dan menulis ttg Buddhisme awal, selain itu ada karya Bhikkhu Analayo juga di http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/fileadmin/pdf/analayo/publications.htm
« Last Edit: 28 January 2014, 03:40:29 PM by Shinichi »
"Holmes once said not to allow your judgement to be biased by personal qualities, and emotional qualities are antagonistic to clear reasoning."
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Offline xenocross

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #53 on: 29 January 2014, 03:23:46 AM »
kayak-nya pendapat bhikkhu sujato yang terus di-muncul-kan.

sebenarnya dia juga mengutip karya peneliti lain, Yin Shun, untuk General Integrated Sutta Theory (GIST). Juga banyak peneliti lain dikutip.
Bhikkhu Sujato selain sebagai peneliti sejarah, juga sebagai praktisi dan paham vinaya, jadi jelas ada keunggulan dibanding peneliti sejarah yg tidak paham vinaya dan dhamma.
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Offline bond

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #54 on: 29 January 2014, 08:40:14 AM »
sebenarnya dia juga mengutip karya peneliti lain, Yin Shun, untuk General Integrated Sutta Theory (GIST). Juga banyak peneliti lain dikutip.
Bhikkhu Sujato selain sebagai peneliti sejarah, juga sebagai praktisi dan paham vinaya, jadi jelas ada keunggulan dibanding peneliti sejarah yg tidak paham vinaya dan dhamma.

Apakah peniliti sejarah hanya bhikkhu Sujato?bagaimana dengan bhikkhu lainnya? apakah tidak ada peniliti lain juga sebagai perbandingan?
Praktisi seperti apa Bhikkhu Sujato? Pariyati, pati-pati, or pativedha? (no offense)
Paham vinaya? oklah.



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Offline morpheus

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #55 on: 29 January 2014, 09:04:24 AM »
jangan dilihat siapa yang berpendapat, tapi lihatlah pendapatnya...
apabila ada pendapat atau sumber lain yang tidak sama, tolong dibabarkan di sini.

imo, forum diskusi itu bukan adu tokoh atau adu iman kepada tokoh, melainkan tempat bertukar pendapat, bertukar isinya.
* I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it
* Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

Offline bond

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #56 on: 29 January 2014, 09:09:03 AM »
Memang forum diskusi, makanya saya tanya, orang bertanya koq disimpulkan adu tokoh dll. aneh nih forum diskusinya. pertanyaan sederhana saja tidak bisa dijawab, malah muncul curigation he..he

astaga naga
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #57 on: 29 January 2014, 09:37:04 AM »
lho saya nanggapi om dilbert, kok anda yang merasa...
astaganaga...

lagian kalo om bond merasa tidak setuju atau om bond memiliki pendapat dan sumber lain, silakan saja dibabarkan. saya juga ingin tau apa ada pendapat lain...
* I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it
* Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

Offline bond

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #58 on: 29 January 2014, 01:00:53 PM »
lho saya nanggapi om dilbert, kok anda yang merasa...
astaganaga...

lagian kalo om bond merasa tidak setuju atau om bond memiliki pendapat dan sumber lain, silakan saja dibabarkan. saya juga ingin tau apa ada pendapat lain...


Kalau begitu tulisan om Dilbert anda anggap adu tokoh sepertinya om dilbert perlu klarifikasi benar gak demikian, kalau tidak benar sangat disayangkan. Itu saja tanggapan dari saya. saran saja kalau memberi tanggapan di quote or ditujukan kepada siapa atau umum. Seharusnya seorang Glomod dan member lama mengetahui hal ini.
« Last Edit: 29 January 2014, 01:04:16 PM by bond »
Natthi me saranam annam, Buddho me saranam varam, Etena saccavajjena, Sotthi te hotu sabbada

Offline dilbert

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #59 on: 29 January 2014, 01:23:02 PM »
Kalau begitu tulisan om Dilbert anda anggap adu tokoh sepertinya om dilbert perlu klarifikasi benar gak demikian, kalau tidak benar sangat disayangkan. Itu saja tanggapan dari saya. saran saja kalau memberi tanggapan di quote or ditujukan kepada siapa atau umum. Seharusnya seorang Glomod dan member lama mengetahui hal ini.

seperti-nya memang pada akhir-nya akan adu tokoh....

Mingun Sayadaw (+ Tipitakadhara + 2500 bhikkhu) lawan bhikkhu2 sekarang...

soalnya Buddha Gautama tidak bisa lagi dimintai validasi-nya... maka-nya yah terjadi seperti ini, saling klaim...
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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #60 on: 29 January 2014, 01:30:33 PM »
Wah, asik nih... orang yang dari awal menyinggung tokoh, berlindung di balik tokoh, protes tulisan tokoh lain yang ga sesuai tulisan tokohnya, malah ngomong orang lain yang mau ngadu tokoh. hehehe

Untung di forum ini tidak bisa sembarangan hapus post, jadi semua orang bisa lihat lengkap jalannya diskusi.

Offline dilbert

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Re: Perbandingan Teks Berbagai Sumber
« Reply #61 on: 29 January 2014, 01:49:59 PM »
Wah, asik nih... orang yang dari awal menyinggung tokoh, berlindung di balik tokoh, protes tulisan tokoh lain yang ga sesuai tulisan tokohnya, malah ngomong orang lain yang mau ngadu tokoh. hehehe

Untung di forum ini tidak bisa sembarangan hapus post, jadi semua orang bisa lihat lengkap jalannya diskusi.

karena sudah mentok diskusi-nya, masing-masing mencari referensi yang sesuai dengan argumentasi-nya...

Jadi Mingun Sayadaw (+ Tipitakadhara) + 2500 bhikkhu di konsili ke-VI  --- VS --- Bhikkhu Sujato ?


---

Note : Jaman Buddha masih hidup saja, masih ada orang yang sependapat dengan Devadatta...
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Serivanija Jataka (jataka no 3)
« Reply #62 on: 29 January 2014, 02:39:11 PM »
Nevertheless, they had got in their house the golden bowl out of which in the old days the great merchant, the head of the family, used to eat; but it had been thrown among the pots and pans, and having been long out of use, was grimed over with dirt, so that the two women did
not know that it was gold. To the door of their house came the greedy hawker on his round, crying, "Waterpots to sell! Waterpots to sell!" And the damsel, when she knew be was there, said to her grandmother, "Oh, do buy me a trinket, grandmother."

"We're very poor, dear; what can we offer in exchange for it?" "Why here's this bowl which is no good to us. Let us change that for it."
The old woman had the hawker brought in and seated, and gave him the bowl, saying, "Take this, sir, and be so good as to give your sister something or other in exchange."
The hawker took the bowl in his hand, turned it over, and, suspecting it was gold, scratched a line on the back of it with a needle, where by he knew for certain that it was real gold.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j1/j1006.htm

sepembacaan ku Dhamma selalu akan di gores dengan jarum  (di uji dan di keritik) untuk mendapat pengetahuan sejati nya
« Last Edit: 29 January 2014, 02:41:40 PM by kullatiro »

 

anything