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Offline Stephensuleeman

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #15 on: 11 October 2012, 08:07:06 PM »
Untuk yang di bold hitam , mungkin saja Mr J**** tidak pernah membaptis secara paksa, tetapi sejarah berkata lain. 
Akuilah sejarah kelam masa lampau kekr****nan, silahkan anda baca link berikut : http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm#.UHaxPbQmTdl

Janganlah mengingkari sejarah; jika ada , katakan ada, dan katakan pula penyesalan serta janji untuk  tidak lagi melakukan hal serupa baik dengan cara kekejaman maupun iming iming pekerjaan dan jabatan.

Kata bapak pendeta "pengakuan adalah awal dari pemulihan"
tidak
itu murni cmn kepentingan oknum kerajaan doank
wong yg pindah ke Krizten malah diomongin Marranos (berarti "babi" dalam bahasa Spanyol) kok: http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkuisisi_Spanyol

Offline Stephensuleeman

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #16 on: 11 October 2012, 08:19:03 PM »
saya koreksi beberapa hal
1. Saya tau kl kalian punya dendam tersendiri seperti Kriztenisasi atw pelecehan budaya. Padahal jelas2 kita hanya ingin tukar menukar informasi & tidak berniat utk demikian krn jelas2 juga hal itu mustahil dilakukan krn kalian semua keimanannya udh kuat..... kami sama sekali tidak punya dendam kepada kalian kenapa jg kami harus dendam semua itu ada sebab akibat nya malah kebanyakan kelompok anda lah yg suka melecehkan agama kami

2.tp tahukah kalian bahwa sebenarnya hal2 seperti itu hanya pernah dilakukan oleh sekte Saksi-Saksi Yehuwa yg sesat & kontroversial.. dari mana anda tahu mereka sesat?? anda harus belajar sejarah kr15ten awal malah menurut saya saksi2 yehuwa lah ajaran kr15tus sesungguhnya ajaran yg sekarang lah yg banyak kesesatannya apa perlu saya bahas lagi mengenai masalah natal,perpuluhan,paskah,hamba tuhan yg korup dan msh banyak lagi

3. Saya ragu kelompok atheis ingin memecah belah 1 agama dengan agama yg lain, bukannya kelompok atheis sama dengan kelompok kalian keras kepala dan menganggap ajaran sendiri yg benar,

1. ingat jg bro. org yg melecehkan jgn digeneralisasikan dr golongan tertentu. banyak jg dr banyak golongan lain. & jgn generalisasikan pula setiap org dr golongan tersebut tukang melecehkan.

2. aneh, tiba2 Anda bisa2nya membela sekte itu. Lihat lagi mengenai mereka yg jelas2 oknum dibalik Kriztenisasi: http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontroversi_mengenai_Saksi-Saksi_Yehuwa#Sikap_terhadap_agama-agama_lain

ingat bro, membela Saksi-Saksi Yehuwa=mendukung Kriztenisasi. mengenai masalah bersinggungan itu urusannya sendiri. silahkan cek di situs2 yg ngurusin kek gituan.

3. Tp kaum Atheis itu sama2 menghujat suatu agama & anehnya beberapa kaum Theis kek kalian malah mendukung hujatan itu yg berarti sama saja dgn mendukung Atheis

Offline Mokau Kaucu

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #17 on: 11 October 2012, 09:02:26 PM »
Wah, kelihatannya masih malu malu, apakah semuanya benar tergolong oknum Krizten?
Saya copy yg bagian Amerika saja deh.. :)


Native Peoples

Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]


Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.

As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take  to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]
Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
Other tribes were to follow the same path.
Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord  make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.


Kalau para pelaku yang diceritakan diatas adalah oknum; kok banyak amat oknumnya?
Kalau semua mereka adalah oknum, yg salah orangnya atau ajaran yang menyebabkan demikian?

Hmmm, ........ :-?
~Life is suffering, why should we make it more?~

Offline yanfei

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #18 on: 11 October 2012, 09:12:58 PM »
 [at] TS jadi gw harus bilang wow gitu?

Offline Stephensuleeman

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #19 on: 11 October 2012, 09:18:28 PM »
Wah, kelihatannya masih malu malu, apakah semuanya benar tergolong oknum Krizten?
Saya copy yg bagian Amerika saja deh.. :)


Native Peoples

Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]


Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.

As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take  to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]
Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
Other tribes were to follow the same path.
Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord  make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.


Kalau para pelaku yang diceritakan diatas adalah oknum; kok banyak amat oknumnya?
Kalau semua mereka adalah oknum, yg salah orangnya atau ajaran yang menyebabkan demikian?

Hmmm, ........ :-?

Offline bangun _pw

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #20 on: 11 October 2012, 09:56:51 PM »
saya pikir yang kmren ma yang ini satu produk...tata bahasanya sama...
ngomong2 soal memaksa atau tidak....saya mau cerita...(cerita gak ya...)intinya kek curhatnya vethena lah..
"semoga semua makhluk hidup berbahagia"

Offline Sunyata

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #21 on: 11 October 2012, 10:13:07 PM »
Cuci
Quote
"Terkadang otak kita memang perlu dicuci agar bersih dari kesalahan-kesalahan ajaran manusia."
+
Bersih
Quote
"Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten"
= Cuci bersih :))

Offline Mokau Kaucu

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #22 on: 11 October 2012, 10:17:44 PM »
Judul topic yang lebih tepat seperti ini : Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor pada Krizten
~Life is suffering, why should we make it more?~

Offline Predator

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #23 on: 12 October 2012, 08:43:38 AM »
Sekte Saksi-Saksi Yehuwa tersebut memang biasanya berbaur dalam Gereja Krizten lainnya sehingga hampir tak dapat dibedakan dgn yg lainnya. Namun masih dapat dibedakan melalui ajarannya: http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontroversi_mengenai_Saksi-Saksi_Yehuwa#Perbedaan-perbedaan_doktriner

hmm mungkin saja, coba nanti saya tanya orangnya langsung. kasihan juga setiap minggu dipaksa ke tempat ibadah istrinya dan disana diam karena memang tidak cocok.. awalnya sih saya pribadi melihat tidak masalah nikah dengan yang berbeda keyakinan, ternyata kalau lagi apes salah pilih kasihan juga jadi menderita.. ditinggal tidak bisa, pindah agama juga tidak cocok.. jadi mungkin tidak heran sering ditanya "kapan mau tobat" ;D
susah dan senang, sakit dan sehat selalu silih berganti

Offline K.K.

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #24 on: 12 October 2012, 09:01:09 AM »
Apa pula ini ada beginian?


MOD: Terserahlah Anda mau mengatakan ngomongin agama lain atw apa tp ini krn saya udh resah dgn diskriminasi dgn netter lainnya yg malah gak mau menjalankan topik

Teman2, ketika saya buka topik disini yg ingin menanyakan soal Budhist & mengenai Krizten selalu dianggap ngehujat & malah didiskriminasi. Sebaliknya, ketika saya infoin keluhan kalian ke Forum Krizten malah jg ikutan dihujat (ibaratnya keluar kandang singa, masuk kandang buaya :)) )
Itu salah anda sendiri ngomongin Kr1sten di forum Buddhis, ngomongin Buddhis di forum Kr1sten. Seperti pakai merah di kandang banteng, dan pakai hijau di pantai selatan. "Nyari mati" namanya.


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Saya tau kl kalian punya dendam tersendiri seperti Kriztenisasi atw pelecehan budaya. Padahal jelas2 kita hanya ingin tukar menukar informasi & tidak berniat utk demikian krn jelas2 juga hal itu mustahil dilakukan krn kalian semua keimanannya udh kuat.
Saya sih tidak punya dendam. Kalaupun ada di sini yang dendam, solusinya adalah dengan meninggalkan kebencian, bukan membalas dendam atau berusaha mengubah mereka.


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tp tahukah kalian bahwa sebenarnya hal2 seperti itu hanya pernah dilakukan oleh sekte Saksi-Saksi Yehuwa yg sesat & kontroversial: http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontroversi_mengenai_Saksi-Saksi_Yehuwa#Sikap_terhadap_agama-agama_lain

Sebaliknya, golongan kr****n besar seperti ka****k Roma tidak pernah mempunyai perintah kr****nisasi baik itu dalam dokumen Konsili Vatikan II, Kitab Hukum Kanonik, Ensiklopedi Gereja, hingga Tafsir Kitab Suci: http://filsuf-kampung.blogspot.com/2012/06/sarimi-dan-phobia-kr****nisasi_11.html

namun kalian jg ngatain bahwa ngomongin tentang Injil jg bermaksud Kriztenisasi seperti halnya yg dikatakan pd ayat ini.
Sepertinya saya pernah dengar tentang 'inquistion', apa saya hanya berhalusinasi yah...?



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Lalu Ia berkata kepada mereka: "Pergilah ke seluruh dunia, beritakanlah Injil kepada segala makhluk. (Markus 16:15)

Apakah ayat ini memerintahkan demikian ? Tentu tidak karena hanya dikatakan agar memberitakan Injil dan bukan memasukan orang ke dalam agama kr****n. Pengertiannya sama dengan menyebarkan informasi dari sebuah surat kabar namun bukan berarti orang yang mendapatkan informasi tersebut berlangganan surat kabar tersebut, bukan ?

Begitu pun dengan Yesus, seperti yang diketahui bahwa Yesus mempunyai banyak orang yang mendengar ajaranNya namun tak pernah disebutkan seluruh orang tersebut tersebut dijadikan pengikut alias dibaptis. Itulah yang menjadi suatu pembelajaran bagi Non-kr****n yang mempunyai ketakutan terhadap itu. Jika orang dapat masuk kr****n hanya dikarenakan pemberitaan Injil maka justru sangat menghebatkan agama kr****n.

Menerima org sebagai Krizten tidaklah murahan, menerimakan kepada orang yang secara jelas tidak menginginkannya, sama saja seperti perumpamaan di bawah ini :

"Jangan kamu memberikan barang yang kudus kepada anjing dan jangan kamu melemparkan mutiaramu kepada babi, supaya jangan diinjak-injaknya dengan kakinya, lalu ia berbalik mengoyak kamu. (Matius 7:6)

Namun, dikarenakan itu kalian kemudian mengkritisi Krizten dlm beberapa suatu hujatan dr beberapa sumber. Tahukah kalian bahwa kebanyak sumber itu berasal dr golongan Atheis yang menyerang suatu agama. Parahnya, agresi mereka sering diamini oleh beberapa golongan agama lainnya yang juga ingin menyerang golongan agama tersebut dengan beberapa alasan seperti meningkatkan keimanan. Padahal secara tak sadar hal ini sebagai bagian dari pemecah-belahan antar golongan Theis dan terkadang hal ini dapat menjadi menelan ludah sendiri atau mempertentangkan keyakinannya sendiri jika suatu hujatan juga terdapat suatu keyakinan sama yang sedang dihujat. Pada akhirnya, golongan Atheis akan mengalahkan satu per satu golongan Theis dengan mudahnya seperti halnya penjajah Belanda yang mengadu domba rakyat Indonesia pada jaman dahulu agar kemudian dengan mudahnya penjajah Belanda menundukan setiap golongan yang terpecah belah tersebut dengan mudahnya.

Sehingga jika suatu golongan Theis menyerang suatu agama dengan memakai serangan yang berasal dari Atheis, maka golongan tersebut sama halnya dengan kelompok Belanda Item (pribumi yang memihak penjajah) yang dengan teganya mengkhianati bangsanya sendiri pada masa lalu. Jikalau ingin meningkatkan suatu keimanan dalam beragama, melihat keburukan dari agama lain bukanlah solusinya namun cukup mendalami agama secara mendalam dan bentuklah suatu harga diri dalam keimanan.
Jadi intinya anda mengajak Buddhis untuk menghantam Atheis dan Saksi Yehova, lalu berdamai dengan Kr1sten? Maaf, bung. Buddhis tidak ada urusan 'politik' begituan. Mau Atheis, Kr1sten, atau Saksi Yehova, kalau memang bersikap sebagai teman, yah tetap kita anggap teman, bukan musuh. Kalau datang dengan sikap tidak baik, walaupun Buddhis pun tidak akan diterima secara baik2.


Jadi silahkan kalau ada yang mau komentar, thread ini bisa hilang tanpa pemberitahuan lebih lanjut.

Offline sanjiva

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #25 on: 12 October 2012, 10:05:19 AM »
saya pikir yang kmren ma yang ini satu produk...tata bahasanya sama...
ngomong2 soal memaksa atau tidak....saya mau cerita...(cerita gak ya...)intinya kek curhatnya vethena lah..

Ceritakan aja, jangan ditahan2 entar jadi jerawat  ^-^ :))
«   Ignorance is bliss, but the truth will set you free   »

Offline Stephensuleeman

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #26 on: 12 October 2012, 11:28:53 AM »
Wah, kelihatannya masih malu malu, apakah semuanya benar tergolong oknum Krizten?
Saya copy yg bagian Amerika saja deh.. :)


Native Peoples

Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]


Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.

As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take  to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]
Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
Other tribes were to follow the same path.
Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord  make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.


Kalau para pelaku yang diceritakan diatas adalah oknum; kok banyak amat oknumnya?
Kalau semua mereka adalah oknum, yg salah orangnya atau ajaran yang menyebabkan demikian?

Hmmm, ........ :-?

itu mah krn kebetulan waktu itu di Eropa Krizten semua
di Asia seperti di Arab, India, dan China jg banyak terjadi kok

andaikata Genghis Khan berhasil menaklukan Eropa & rakyatnya dimasukin agama Mongol semua jg tetep terjadi demikian kok

Offline emulio

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #27 on: 12 October 2012, 11:37:48 AM »


Begitu pun dengan Yesus, seperti yang diketahui bahwa Yesus mempunyai banyak orang yang mendengar ajaranNya namun tak pernah disebutkan seluruh orang tersebut tersebut dijadikan pengikut alias dibaptis. Itulah yang menjadi suatu pembelajaran bagi Non-kr****n yang mempunyai ketakutan terhadap itu. Jika orang dapat masuk kr****n hanya dikarenakan pemberitaan Injil maka justru sangat menghebatkan agama kr****n.

Menerima org sebagai Krizten tidaklah murahan, menerimakan kepada orang yang secara jelas tidak menginginkannya, sama saja seperti perumpamaan di bawah ini :

"Jangan kamu memberikan barang yang kudus kepada anjing dan jangan kamu melemparkan mutiaramu kepada babi, supaya jangan diinjak-injaknya dengan kakinya, lalu ia berbalik mengoyak kamu. (Matius 7:6)

Namun, dikarenakan itu kalian kemudian mengkritisi Krizten dlm beberapa suatu hujatan dr beberapa sumber. Tahukah kalian bahwa kebanyak sumber itu berasal dr golongan Atheis yang menyerang suatu agama. Parahnya, agresi mereka sering diamini oleh beberapa golongan agama lainnya yang juga ingin menyerang golongan agama tersebut dengan beberapa alasan seperti meningkatkan keimanan. Padahal secara tak sadar hal ini sebagai bagian dari pemecah-belahan antar golongan Theis dan terkadang hal ini dapat menjadi menelan ludah sendiri atau mempertentangkan keyakinannya sendiri jika suatu hujatan juga terdapat suatu keyakinan sama yang sedang dihujat. Pada akhirnya, golongan Atheis akan mengalahkan satu per satu golongan Theis dengan mudahnya seperti halnya penjajah Belanda yang mengadu domba rakyat Indonesia pada jaman dahulu agar kemudian dengan mudahnya penjajah Belanda menundukan setiap golongan yang terpecah belah tersebut dengan mudahnya.

Sehingga jika suatu golongan Theis menyerang suatu agama dengan memakai serangan yang berasal dari Atheis, maka golongan tersebut sama halnya dengan kelompok Belanda Item (pribumi yang memihak penjajah) yang dengan teganya mengkhianati bangsanya sendiri pada masa lalu. Jikalau ingin meningkatkan suatu keimanan dalam beragama, melihat keburukan dari agama lain bukanlah solusinya namun cukup mendalami agama secara mendalam dan bentuklah suatu harga diri dalam keimanan.

1. Yang di-bold merah itu secara implisit kamu mengatakan ajaran kamu yang paling kudus, dan mengumpamakan orang-orang yang tidak masuk kr****n sebagai babi/anjing?  :o

2. Kamu mengajak umat beragama bersatu untuk mengusir penjajah (atheist) dari dunia ini?
untuk tingkatan tertentu, umat buddhist juga bisa digolongkan atheist.

Dan sebenarnya, mau dia atheist sekalipun, tidak bisa kamu analogikan sebagai penjajah, karena bisa saja mereka benar, ajaran kamu yang salah.
Buddha's teachings summed in one word: Awareness.

Offline Stephensuleeman

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #28 on: 12 October 2012, 11:46:22 AM »
1. Yang di-bold merah itu secara implisit kamu mengatakan ajaran kamu yang paling kudus, dan mengumpamakan orang-orang yang tidak masuk kr****n sebagai babi/anjing?  :o

2. Kamu mengajak umat beragama bersatu untuk mengusir penjajah (atheist) dari dunia ini?
untuk tingkatan tertentu, umat buddhist juga bisa digolongkan atheist.

Dan sebenarnya, mau dia atheist sekalipun, tidak bisa kamu analogikan sebagai penjajah, karena bisa saja mereka benar, ajaran kamu yang salah.
1. itu cmn metafora aja, cmn contoh. bukan arti yg sebenarnya. umat gereja jg dipanggil "domba2 terkasih" & pemimpin gereja dipanggil "gembala". gak ada maksud mengejek disini

2. maksudnya Atheis tuh Anti-theis (Anti sebuah kepercayaan) jd mrpkn org yg gak seneng ama kepercayaan tertentu

Offline hoaxslayer

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Re: Membersihkan Pikiran Kotor Kepada Krizten
« Reply #29 on: 12 October 2012, 11:51:33 AM »
kabar gembira? menggembirakan unuk siapa?


- wooooi soooob, gw punya kabar gembira nih!
+ apa?
- gini kabarnya... was wis wus wes wos...
+ oh, gitu. ya baguslah. good for you.
- lo ga ikut gembira, sob?
+ kagak. biasa aja.

 

 

anything