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Offline bond

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Takdir dan Nasib
« on: 25 December 2007, 01:26:00 PM »
Ada yg tau arti Takdir dan Nasib, apakah ada perbedaan arti dari dua kata tersebut?
saya minta bantuan teman2 disini untuk membahasnya, saya masih melihatnya samar2 :)

Apakah takdir bisa dilawan atau nasib yg bisa dilawan?, bisa berikan contohnya? kalau ada penjelasan dari Sutta2(akan sangat membantu saya).

 _/\_
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Offline Kemenyan

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #1 on: 25 December 2007, 02:18:47 PM »
CMIIW...
Takdir -> Sudah terjadi ? (contoh: cowo/cewe/manusia)
Nasib -> on the way...  ?

Offline Sumedho

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #2 on: 25 December 2007, 02:31:44 PM »
bedah bahasa nih..
takdir = ditentukan . (ditakdirkan, sudah takdirmu)
nasib = kondisi keadaan.  (nasib loe jelek banget, oh nasib oh nasib)

dari sudut buddhism tentu takdir itu agak kurang pas karena tidak ada entity tinggi yang menentukan takdir kita. kita sendiri yang membuat takdir. kalau kita sendiri yah, kurang pas juga dipakai kata takdir lagi ;D

kalau nasib yah sudah tidak perlu dibahas lagi :)

mungkin perlu intip sutta berikut


Quote
Majjhima Nikaya 135
Culakammavibhanga Sutta
The Shorter Exposition of Kamma

Translated from the Pali by Ñanamoli Thera
For free distribution only,
by arrangement with the Buddhist Publication Society
 

Introduction (by Bhikkhu Khantipalo)
You want: long life, health, beauty, power, riches, high birth, wisdom? Or even some of these things? They do not appear by chance. It is not someone's luck that they are healthy, or another's lack of it that he is stupid. Though it may not be clear to us now, all such inequalities among human beings (and all sorts of beings) come about because of the kamma they have made individually. Each person reaps his own fruits. So if one is touched by short life, sickliness, ugliness, insignificance, poverty, low birth or stupidity and one does not like these things, no need to just accept that that is the way it is. The future need not be like that provided that one makes the right kind of kamma now. Knowing what kamma to make and what not to make is the mark of a wise man. It is also the mark of one who is no longer drifting aimlessly but has some direction in life and some control over the sort of events that will occur.
1. Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Park.
Then Subha the student (brahmin), Todeyya's son, went to the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him, and when the courteous and amiable talk was finished, he sat down at one side. When he had done so, Subha the student said to the Blessed One:

2. "Master Gotama, what is the reason, what is the condition, why inferiority and superiority are met with among human beings, among mankind? For one meets with short-lived and long-lived people, sick and healthy people, ugly and handsome people, insignificant and influential people, poor and rich people, low-born and high-born people, stupid and wise people. What is the reason, what is the condition, why superiority and inferiority are met with among human beings, among mankind?"

3. "Student, beings are owners of kammas, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority."

4. "I do not understand the detailed meaning of Master Gotama's utterance spoken in brief without expounding the detailed meaning. It would be good if Master Gotama taught me the Dhamma so that I might understand the detailed meaning of Master Gotama's utterance spoken in brief without expounding the detailed meaning."

"Then listen, student, and heed well what I shall say."

"Even so, Master Gotama," Subha the student replied. The Blessed One said this:

5. "Here, student, some woman or man is a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to all living beings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. If, on the dissolution of the body, after death, instead of his reappearing in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell, he comes to the human state, he is short-lived wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to short life, that is to say, to be a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to all living beings.

6. "But here some woman or man, having abandoned the killing of living beings, abstains from killing living beings, lays aside the rod and lays aside the knife, is considerate and merciful and dwells compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, in the heavenly world. If, on the dissolution of the body, after death, instead of his reappearing in a happy destination, in the heavenly world, he comes to the human state, he is long-lived wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to long life, that is to say, to have abandoned the killing of living beings, to abstain from killing living beings, to lay aside the rod and lay aside the knife, to be considerate and merciful, and to dwell compassionate for the welfare of all living beings.

7. "Here, student, some woman or man is one who harms beings with his hands or with clods or with sticks or with knives. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation...If instead he comes to the human state, he is sickly wherever he is born. This is the way that leads to sickness, that is to say, to be one who harms beings with one's hands or with clods or with sticks or with knives.

8. "But here some woman or man is not one who harms beings with his hands, or with clods, or with sticks, or with knives. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination...If instead he comes to the human state, he is healthy wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to health, that is to say, not to be one who harms beings with his hands or with clods or with sticks or with knives.

9. "Here, student, some woman or man is angry, much given to rage; even when little is said, he is furious, angry, ill-disposed, resentful, he shows ill-temper, hate and surliness. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation...If instead he comes to the human state, he is ugly wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to ugliness, that is to say, to be furious, angry, ill-disposed, resentful, and to show ill-temper, hate and surliness.

10. "But here some woman or man is not angry or much given to rage; even when much is said, he is not furious, angry, ill-disposed, resentful, nor does he show ill-temper, hate or surliness. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination...If instead he comes to the human state, he is beautiful wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to beauty, that is to say, not to be angry or given to much rage; even when much is said, not to be furious, angry, ill-disposed or resentful, or to show ill-temper, hate or surliness.

11. "Here, student, some woman or man is envious; he envies, begrudges and harbors envy about others' gains, honor, veneration, respect, salutations and offerings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation...If instead he comes to the human state, he is insignificant wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to insignificance, that is to say, to be envious, to envy, begrudge, and harbor envy about others' gain, honor, veneration, respect, salutations and offerings.

12. "But here some woman or man is not envious, he does not envy, begrudge or harbor envy about others' gain, honor, veneration, respect, salutations and offerings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination...If instead he comes to the human state, he is influential wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to influence, that is to say, not to be envious, not to envy, begrudge or harbor envy about others' gain, honor, veneration, respect, salutations and offerings.

13. "Here, student, some woman or man is not a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, perfumes, unguents, bed, roof and lighting to monks or brahmins. Due to having performed and completed such kamma, on the dissolution of the body, after death he reappears in a state of deprivation...If instead he comes to the human state, he is poor wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to poverty, that is to say, not to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, perfumes, unguents, bed, roof and lighting to monks and brahmins.

14. "But here some woman or man is a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, perfumes, unguents, bed, roof and lighting to monks and brahmins. Due to having performed and completed such kamma, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination...If instead he comes to the human state, he is rich wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to riches, that is to say, to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, perfumes, unguents, bed, roof and lighting to monks and brahmins.

15. "Here, student, some woman or man is obdurate and haughty; he does not pay homage to whom he should pay homage, or rise up for whom he should rise up, or give a seat to whom he should give a seat, or make way for whom he should make way, or worship him who should be worshipped, or respect him who should be respected, or revere him who should be revered, or honor him who should be honored. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation...If instead he comes to the human state, he is low-born wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to low birth, that is to say, to be obdurate and haughty, not to pay homage to whom he should pay homage, nor rise up for..., nor give a seat to..., nor make way for..., nor worship..., nor respect..., nor revere..., nor honor him who should be honored.

16. "But here some woman or man is not obdurate or haughty; he pays homage to whom he should pay homage, rises up for whom he should rise up, gives a seat to whom he should give a seat, makes way for whom he should make way, worships him who should be worshipped, respects him who should be respected, reveres him who should be revered, honors him who should be honored. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination...If instead he comes to the human state, he is high-born wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to high birth, that is to say, not to be obdurate or haughty, to pay homage to whom he should pay homage, to rise up for..., to give a seat to..., to make way for..., to worship...respect...revere...honor him who should be honored.

17. "Here, student, some woman or man when visiting a monk or brahmin, does not ask: 'What is wholesome, venerable sir? What is unwholesome? What is blamable? What is blameless? What should be cultivated? What should not be cultivated? What, by my doing it, will be long for my harm and suffering? Or what, by my doing it, will be long for my welfare and happiness?' Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation...If instead he comes to the human state, he will be stupid wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to stupidity, that is to say, when visiting a monk or brahmin, not to ask: 'What is profitable?...Or what, by my doing it, will be long for my welfare and happiness?'

18. "But here some woman or man when visiting a monk or brahmin, asks: 'What is profitable, venerable sir?...Or what, by my doing it, will be long for my welfare and happiness?' Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination...If instead he comes to the human state, he is wise wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to wisdom, that is to say, when visiting a monk or brahmin, to ask: 'What is profitable, venerable sir?...Or what, by my doing it, will be long for my welfare and happiness?'

19. "So, student, the way that leads to short life makes people short-lived, the way that leads to long life makes people long-lived; the way that leads to sickness makes people sick, the way that leads to health makes people healthy; the way that leads to ugliness makes people ugly, the way that leads to beauty makes people beautiful; the way that leads to insignificance makes people insignificant, the way that leads to influence makes people influential; the way that leads to poverty makes people poor, the way that leads to riches makes people rich; the way that leads to low birth makes people low-born, the way that leads to high birth makes people high-born; the way that leads to stupidity makes people stupid, the way that leads to wisdom makes people wise.

20. "Beings are owners of kammas, student, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority."

21. When this was said, Subha the student, Todeyya's son, said to the Blessed One: "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent, Master Gotama! The Dhamma has been made clear in many ways by Master Gotama, as though he were turning upright what had been overthrown, revealing the hidden, showing the way to one who is lost, holding up a lamp in the darkness for those with eyes to see forms.

22. "I go to Master Gotama for refuge, and to the Dhamma and to the Sangha of bhikkhus. From today let Master Gotama accept me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge for life."
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Offline mushroom_kick

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #3 on: 25 December 2007, 02:39:56 PM »
IMO, takdir gk bisa diubah, tp nasib masih bisa!!!
 _/\_
Segala fenomena bentuk & batin tidaklah kekal ada na.....
Semua hanyalah sementara.....

Offline bond

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #4 on: 25 December 2007, 02:57:14 PM »
CMIIW...
Takdir -> Sudah terjadi ? (contoh: cowo/cewe/manusia)
Nasib -> on the way...  ?

Bagaimana kalo umur kita 60 mati, itu takdir atau nasib?
bisa ngak dikatakan Takdir adalah garis besar perjalanan hidup kita oleh timbunan karma kita dan nasib adalah pilihan2 yg berada dalam garis besar itu?

Contoh: Karena karma kita, kita di takdirkan menjadi orang kaya. Nasibnya sebagai pedagang roti, penambang emas, seorang aktor, yg mana ini semua merupakan pilihan?tapi kesemua pilihan itu tetap ujung2nya kaya.pilihan menjadi apa adalah nasib

ada pendapat?


« Last Edit: 25 December 2007, 03:07:04 PM by bond »
Natthi me saranam annam, Buddho me saranam varam, Etena saccavajjena, Sotthi te hotu sabbada

Offline bond

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #5 on: 25 December 2007, 03:03:03 PM »
IMO, takdir gk bisa diubah, tp nasib masih bisa!!!
 _/\_

Bisa dikasi contohnya bro mushroom?

Utk bro Sumedho thanks untuk suttanya, sekalian mo nanya , yg dikatakan mau jadi Sehat "follow the way lead to be healthy" artinya ini nasib kita yg buat atau takdir yg kita buat melalui karma kita?. Atau kalo ada bahasa inggrisnya ada ngak yg bedaiin kata nasib dan takdir. Yg saya tahu 'Destiny" ini untuk takdir atau nasib?

Natthi me saranam annam, Buddho me saranam varam, Etena saccavajjena, Sotthi te hotu sabbada

Offline Buddhism

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #6 on: 25 December 2007, 03:11:24 PM »
 [at] bond
Quote
Bagaimana kalo umur kita 60 mati, itu takdir atau nasib?
itu nasibmu lah nak.. :P, jk jk.

menurut yang saya baca, kita tidak bisa meramalkan sesuatu dengan tepat 100%.
Seperti Sang Buddha dolo, sewaktu masih kecil, peramalnya meramal Siddharta akan menjadi pemimpin agama atau akan menjadi Raja Dunia..

nah, ada 2 pilihan secara garis besarnya, tp akhirnya Pangeran Siddharta menjadi pendiri Agama Buddha dengan 400jt umat bahkan lebih di waktu skrg..

Peramal bisa saja meramalkan anda akan kaya di umur 30tahun, misalnya, nah, apakah anda akan benar2 kaya? pada tanggal brp anda mulai kaya? cara apa yang anda tempuh untuk menjadi kaya?
apakah peramal tsb dapat menjelaskan secara detail dan benar2 terjadi?

Peramal tsb hanya bisa meramalkan kondisi anda di masa depan sesuai dengan karma yang telah anda timbun selama ini.
Apabila anda diramalkan nasib anda akan jelek? Lakukanlah lebih banyak hal baik..
Apabila anda diramalkan nasib anda akan bagus? Jangan senang dolo, keadaan bisa berubah berdasarkan apa yang anda lakukan di saat sekarang dan hari ke depannya., so lakukanlah hal yang baik..
( Intinya sih, timbun karma baik sebanyak-banyaknya.. == tp susah yah  :'( )

Masa lalu = kenangan (belajarlah dari kesalahan dan temukan solusi atas kesalahan tsb)
Masa depan = tergantung dari apa yang anda lakukan sekarang.

So? ingin masa depan anda bagus? Lakukanlah yang terbaik di saat sekarang.

CMIIW  ;D
« Last Edit: 25 December 2007, 03:15:45 PM by Buddhism »

Offline Sumedho

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #7 on: 25 December 2007, 03:26:12 PM »
Quote
Utk bro Sumedho thanks untuk suttanya, sekalian mo nanya , yg dikatakan mau jadi Sehat "follow the way lead to be healthy" artinya ini nasib kita yg buat atau takdir yg kita buat melalui karma kita?. Atau kalo ada bahasa inggrisnya ada ngak yg bedaiin kata nasib dan takdir. Yg saya tahu 'Destiny" ini untuk takdir atau nasib?
kalo yang "follow the way lead to be healthy" yah kita yang mengkondisikan untuk healthy.

susah yah kalo bahas bahasa  ^-^

Quote
destiny |ˈdestinē|
noun ( pl. -nies)
the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future : she was unable to control her own destiny.
• the hidden power believed to control what will happen in the future; fate : he believes in destiny.

coba kata, fate

Quote
fate |fāt|
noun
1 the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power : fate decided his course for him | his injury is a cruel twist of fate.
• the course of someone's life, or the outcome of a particular situation for someone or something, seen as beyond their control : he suffered the same fate as his companion.
• [in sing. ] the inescapable death of a person : the guards led her to her fate.
2 ( the Fates) Greek & Roman Mythology the three goddesses who preside over the birth and life of humans. Each person's destiny was thought of as a thread spun, measured, and cut by the three Fates, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos. Also called the Moirai and the Parcae .
• ( Fates) another term for Norns .
verb ( be fated)
be destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way : [with infinitive ] the regime was fated to end badly.

keknya tiada kata takdir dan nasib di buddhisme :)

kalo mo di pasangin, mungkin takdir->destiny, nasib->fate
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Offline bond

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #8 on: 25 December 2007, 03:34:31 PM »
[at] bond
Quote
Bagaimana kalo umur kita 60 mati, itu takdir atau nasib?
itu nasibmu lah nak.. :P, jk jk.

menurut yang saya baca, kita tidak bisa meramalkan sesuatu dengan tepat 100%.
Seperti Sang Buddha dolo, sewaktu masih kecil, peramalnya meramal Siddharta akan menjadi pemimpin agama atau akan menjadi Raja Dunia..

nah, ada 2 pilihan secara garis besarnya, tp akhirnya Pangeran Siddharta menjadi pendiri Agama Buddha dengan 400jt umat bahkan lebih di waktu skrg..

Peramal bisa saja meramalkan anda akan kaya di umur 30tahun, misalnya, nah, apakah anda akan benar2 kaya? pada tanggal brp anda mulai kaya? cara apa yang anda tempuh untuk menjadi kaya?
apakah peramal tsb dapat menjelaskan secara detail dan benar2 terjadi?

Peramal tsb hanya bisa meramalkan kondisi anda di masa depan sesuai dengan karma yang telah anda timbun selama ini.
Apabila anda diramalkan nasib anda akan jelek? Lakukanlah lebih banyak hal baik..
Apabila anda diramalkan nasib anda akan bagus? Jangan senang dolo, keadaan bisa berubah berdasarkan apa yang anda lakukan di saat sekarang dan hari ke depannya., so lakukanlah hal yang baik..
( Intinya sih, timbun karma baik sebanyak-banyaknya.. == tp susah yah  :'( )

Masa lalu = kenangan (belajarlah dari kesalahan dan temukan solusi atas kesalahan tsb)
Masa depan = tergantung dari apa yang anda lakukan sekarang.

So? ingin masa depan anda bagus? Lakukanlah yang terbaik di saat sekarang.

CMIIW  ;D

Kalo tukang ramal mah ngak usa dipercaya 100%

Yg sebenernya menjadi rancu  adalah penggunaan kata ini atau ada hal yg mengandung arti dalam kata tersebut?

Yg Bro buddhism katakan si peramal ttg Sidarta menjadi Buddha atau Raja dunia.......lebih ke sebuah pilihan Sidarta.

Bukankah garis besarnya jadi Orang yg luar biasa di kagumi banyak orang. nasibnya Dia pilih jadi Buddha?
Jadi Takdir sebagai Orang luar biasa, nasibnya menjadi Buddha karena pilihannya.

Jadi bingung nih, blom kerasa ada yg pas, ayo ada lagi masukan.

 _/\_ _/\_
Natthi me saranam annam, Buddho me saranam varam, Etena saccavajjena, Sotthi te hotu sabbada

Offline Buddhism

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #9 on: 25 December 2007, 03:43:21 PM »
klo semuanya bisa diramalkan, semua makhluk ga bisa nentuin masa depannya..

Seperti ada cerita seorang bhikkhu (yang pintar meramal), dia meramalkan seorang biksu kecil akan meninggal kira2 1 bln lagi, maka dia mengijinkan bhikku tsb untuk pulang ke kampung halamannya.

bhikkhu tsb kaget ternyata stlh 1 bln, biksu tsb masih hidup stlh 3 bln yah klo ga salah.
Ternyata sewaktu di perjalanan, biksu tsb menolong ratusan semut ketika ada banjir..

Nah, masa depan kita yang akan menentukan..
Tidak seorang pun dapat mensucikan orang lain..
Tidak ada yang lebih bisa menolongmu selain dirimu sendiri.

Ceritanya klo ga salah bisa di download di dhammacitta.org  :x

Offline mushroom_kick

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #10 on: 25 December 2007, 03:48:00 PM »
IMO, takdir gk bisa diubah, tp nasib masih bisa!!!
 _/\_

Bisa dikasi contohnya bro mushroom?

Utk bro Sumedho thanks untuk suttanya, sekalian mo nanya , yg dikatakan mau jadi Sehat "follow the way lead to be healthy" artinya ini nasib kita yg buat atau takdir yg kita buat melalui karma kita?. Atau kalo ada bahasa inggrisnya ada ngak yg bedaiin kata nasib dan takdir. Yg saya tahu 'Destiny" ini untuk takdir atau nasib?



kl di mintain contoh binggung jg sih, gimana kalau, misal na:
takdir : mushroom itu ce (tdk bisa diubah)
nasib  : pada kira co (kl ud dikasih tau berubah dunk)
hehe, takdir itu sama gk ya ama kebenaran??  ???
 :)) :)) :))
kl penjelasan ini di anggap ngaco abaikan az  ^:)^ ^:)^
Segala fenomena bentuk & batin tidaklah kekal ada na.....
Semua hanyalah sementara.....

Offline jamescoa

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #11 on: 25 December 2007, 07:53:39 PM »
takdir sudah digariskan sejak lahir mis. lahir di keluarga miskin
nasib bisa diubah mis. kalo nasibnya kurang bagus banyak berbuat amal mudah2an bisa mendapatkan karma baik
_/\_

James

Offline bond

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #12 on: 25 December 2007, 08:46:19 PM »
Lahir menjadi ce di keluarga kaya=Takdir
Bisa tetap kaya atau tidak = nasib
Bisakah takdir diubah? bisa
Siapa yg mengubah takdir? nasib

Ini percakapan saya dengan metta, membuat saya sadar. Point singkatnya liat awal postingan mbah menyan paling awal.

 _/\_
Natthi me saranam annam, Buddho me saranam varam, Etena saccavajjena, Sotthi te hotu sabbada

Offline Sumedho

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #13 on: 25 December 2007, 08:56:44 PM »
Lahir jadi ce di keluarga kaya -> takdir
lahir jadi ce di keluarga gembel -> nasip

*joke mode*  :P
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Offline tesla

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Re: Takdir dan Nasib
« Reply #14 on: 25 December 2007, 09:54:27 PM »
IMO, takdir gk bisa diubah, tp nasib masih bisa!!!
 _/\_

i don't think so...
menurutku:
takdir dalam hidup dapat digambarkan seperti sebuah aliran parit...
kemampuan meramal adalah seperti melihat akan bermuara kemana sebuah parit. misalnya:

 x ---------------------> y

kalau semua berjalan begitu saja, tentu saja air di x akan mengalir ke y.
namun dg usaha & tekad kita dapat membangun bendungan atau membelokkan parit tsb. misalnya

 x --------------+   ----->y
                  |
                  +-------> z



nasib adalah seperti ada bagian parit yg dangkal, ada juga yg dalam. ada yg berlumut, ada jg yang bersih...

nasib & takdir dapat lah diubah.
Lepaskan keserakahan akan kesenangan. Lihatlah bahwa melepaskan dunia adalah kedamaian. Tidak ada sesuatu pun yang perlu kau raup, dan tidak ada satu pun yang perlu kau dorong pergi. ~ Buddha ~