Dongeng Kelahiran Gotama??

[Riky_dave]

Ada cerita dimana ketika Siddharta lahir,turun lah air hujan yang hangat dan dingin untuk membersihkan dirinya dari darah..

tadi pagi di brayan,tempat saya tinggal,tiba2 langit menjadi mendung,dan jam2 9 gitu hujan,tapi aneh ya..koq hujannya air hangat??

apakah ini bisa dikaitkan dengan cerita Siddharta?

[Sunkmanitu Tanka Ob'waci]

di rapb disebutkan kenapa bisa keluar air hangat dan air dingin.

[seniya]

Kalau hujan air dingin & panas itu kan memang diatur oleh Dhamma Niyama,yaitu hukum alam yg tdk dipengaruhi oleh Utu,Bija,Citta,Kamma Niyama. Spt halny kejadian gempa saat Buddha menetapkan utk Parinibbana. Jd ini adl fenomena alam yg biasa namun menjd luar biasa krn kemunculan seorg Buddha.

Kalau kejadian bhw setelah dilahirkan Bodhisatta langsung bs berjalan 7 langkah & mengucapkan auman singa bhw Ia-lah yg termulia d dunia ini,ini baru luar biasa (tdk msk akal bg yg tdk meyakininy).

[ryu]

Kalau hujan air dingin & panas itu kan memang diatur oleh Dhamma Niyama,yaitu hukum alam yg tdk dipengaruhi oleh Utu,Bija,Citta,Kamma Niyama. Spt halny kejadian gempa saat Buddha menetapkan utk Parinibbana. Jd ini adl fenomena alam yg biasa namun menjd luar biasa krn kemunculan seorg Buddha.

Kalau kejadian bhw setelah dilahirkan Bodhisatta langsung bs berjalan 7 langkah & mengucapkan auman singa bhw Ia-lah yg termulia d dunia ini,ini baru luar biasa (tdk msk akal bg yg tdk meyakininy).

memang dongeng khan cerita itu?

[seniya]

memang dongeng khan cerita itu?

Kebanyakan ahli akan menyebutnya dongeng atau legenda, karena kisah kelahiran Bodhisatta yang begitu "hidup" yang demikian tidak ditemukan dalam sutta-sutta Nikaya yang merupakan kata-kata langsung dari Sang Buddha, melainkan ditemukan dalam kitab-kitab yang bersifat narasi (bukan kata-kata langsung dari Buddha sendiri) yang dianggap karya belakangan seperti Atthakatha, Jataka, dan Buddhavamsa.

[Indra]

memang dongeng khan cerita itu?

Kebanyakan ahli akan menyebutnya dongeng atau legenda, karena kisah kelahiran Bodhisatta yang begitu "hidup" yang demikian tidak ditemukan dalam sutta-sutta Nikaya yang merupakan kata-kata langsung dari Sang Buddha, melainkan ditemukan dalam kitab-kitab yang bersifat narasi (bukan kata-kata langsung dari Buddha sendiri) yang dianggap karya belakangan seperti Atthakatha, Jataka, dan Buddhavamsa.

Bro Seniya, bagaimana menurut anda dengan "dongeng" yg sama yg terdapat pada Digha Nikaya 14: Mahapadana Sutta?

[seniya]

Bro Seniya, bagaimana menurut anda dengan "dongeng" yg sama yg terdapat pada Digha Nikaya 14: Mahapadana Sutta?

Menurut saya, ada kemungkinan Mahapadana Sutta juga mendapat sisipan dongeng demikian dari kisah kelahiran Bodhisatta dalam kitab2 belakangan seperti Jataka dan Buddhavamsa. Ada kemungkinan mulanya Mahapadana Sutta ini tidak sepanjang dan sedetil spt yang kita temukan sekarang.

Memang belum banyak penelitian yang dilakukan terhadap Mahapadana Sutta sehingga kita cuma bisa berspekulasi/berteori demikian sembari meyakini bahwa sutta ini masih mengandung kata-kata asli Sang Buddha. Satu kajian terhadap sutta ini yang saya ketahui adalah The So-called Mahapadana Sutta (http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/wadd.htm) oleh L. A. Waddell.

Kalau sutta lain, yang saya tahu adalah Mahaparinibbana Sutta yang studinya dilakukan oleh seorang bhikkhu Theravada dalam bukunya berjudul "Mission Accomplished: The Historical Study of Mahaparinibbana Sutta". Bisa di-download pdf-nya di Buddhanet.net (http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/mission-accomplished.pdf). Di sini pun dikatakan bahwa Mahaparinibbana Sutta kemungkinan juga mendapat banyak "penambahan" sejak disusun pada Konsili Pertama.

Btw, ini hanyalah penelitian/kajian secara intelektual atas kitab suci dan tidak seharusnya dijadikan pegangan karena kebenaran suatu penelitian selalu berubah jika ada penelitian baru yang hasilnya mendukung atau menolak hasil penelitian sebelumnya. Janganlah hal ini melemahkan saddha kita terhadap kebenaran isi kitap suci Tipitaka Pali.

[Indra]

Bro Seniya, bagaimana menurut anda dengan "dongeng" yg sama yg terdapat pada Digha Nikaya 14: Mahapadana Sutta?

Menurut saya, ada kemungkinan Mahapadana Sutta juga mendapat sisipan dongeng demikian dari kisah kelahiran Bodhisatta dalam kitab2 belakangan seperti Jataka dan Buddhavamsa. Ada kemungkinan mulanya Mahapadana Sutta ini tidak sepanjang dan sedetil spt yang kita temukan sekarang.

Memang belum banyak penelitian yang dilakukan terhadap Mahapadana Sutta sehingga kita cuma bisa berspekulasi/berteori demikian sembari meyakini bahwa sutta ini masih mengandung kata-kata asli Sang Buddha. Satu kajian terhadap sutta ini yang saya ketahui adalah The So-called Mahapadana Sutta (http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/wadd.htm) oleh L. A. Waddell.

Kalau sutta lain, yang saya tahu adalah Mahaparinibbana Sutta yang studinya dilakukan oleh seorang bhikkhu Theravada dalam bukunya berjudul "Mission Accomplished: The Historical Study of Mahaparinibbana Sutta". Bisa di-download pdf-nya di Buddhanet.net (http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/mission-accomplished.pdf). Di sini pun dikatakan bahwa Mahaparinibbana Sutta kemungkinan juga mendapat banyak "penambahan" sejak disusun pada Konsili Pertama.

Btw, ini hanyalah penelitian/kajian secara intelektual atas kitab suci dan tidak seharusnya dijadikan pegangan karena kebenaran suatu penelitian selalu berubah jika ada penelitian baru yang hasilnya mendukung atau menolak hasil penelitian sebelumnya. Janganlah hal ini melemahkan saddha kita terhadap kebenaran isi kitap suci Tipitaka Pali.

jadi menurut anda Atthakata, Jataka dan Buddhavamsa adalah karya belakangan, sekarang plus Digha Nikaya? menurut anda lagi, bagian manakah dari Tipitaka yg masih  masih dapat dipercaya sebagai Sabda Sang Buddha?

[seniya]

jadi menurut anda Atthakata, Jataka dan Buddhavamsa adalah karya belakangan, sekarang plus Digha Nikaya? menurut anda lagi, bagian manakah dari Tipitaka yg masih  masih dapat dipercaya sebagai Sabda Sang Buddha?

Maaf, bro, jangan tersinggung dulu..... Ini kan pendapat para ahli bahwa Tipitaka Pali ada bagian yang merupakan karya belakang (seperti Atthakatha, Jataka, Buddhavamsa) dan ada yang masih mempertahankan keaslian kata-kata Sang Buddha walaupun disisipi beberapa "penambahan" (sejauh ini yang diketahui baru Mahapadana Sutta dan Mahaparinibbana Sutta karena masih minim penelitian terhadap sutta2 lain). Saya cuma memberikan pendapat para ahli tersebut sebagai tambahan info karena dalam agama Buddha tidak "berdosa" (menghasilkan karma buruk) jika kita meragukan kebenaran kitab suci. Tujuannya tak lain agar kita umat Buddhis tahu bagaimana pandangan para ahli terhadap kitab suci Buddhis. Bahkan di agama tetangga yang katanya berdosa jika meragukan kitab suci pun ada penelitian seperti ini yang juga dilakukan umat mereka sendiri dan hasilnya juga meragukan keaslian kitab suci mereka karena ditulis berabad-abad setelah pendiri agama mereka meninggal.

Sebagai seorang Buddhis, saya meyakini bahwa semua kitab Buddhis apakah dianggap oleh para ahli sebagai kata-kata Sang Buddha atau bukan adalah mengandung kebenaran seperti yang diajarkan Sang Buddha sendiri. Jadi, pendapat para ahli memungkin menarik bagi sisi intelektual kita, namun dalam hal keyakinan terhadap Sang Tri Ratna pendapat saya tidak sama seperti pendapat para ahli tersebut.

Semoga bisa dimengerti dan tidak menimbulkan pandangan salah.

[Indra]

 [at]  Seniya, saya tertarik pada pandangan2 anda atas sutta2, dan saya hanya menanyakan pendapat anda dan mungkin dengan referensi para ahli tersebut. itu tentu saja jika anda berkenan. saya sama sekali tidak berkepentingan untuk tersinggung, Tipitaka bukan karya saya.

saya sudah sering membaca kontroversi seputar Mahaparinibbana sutta, namun belum membaca yg seputar Mahapadana sutta, mungkin bisa berbagi pengetahuan di sini, bukti2 yg menganggap bahwa sutta ini tidak otentik.

[seniya]

[at]  Seniya, saya tertarik pada pandangan2 anda atas sutta2, dan saya hanya menanyakan pendapat anda dan mungkin dengan referensi para ahli tersebut. itu tentu saja jika anda berkenan. saya sama sekali tidak berkepentingan untuk tersinggung, Tipitaka bukan karya saya.

saya sudah sering membaca kontroversi seputar Mahaparinibbana sutta, namun belum membaca yg seputar Mahapadana sutta, mungkin bisa berbagi pengetahuan di sini, bukti2 yg menganggap bahwa sutta ini tidak otentik.

Ok, thx, maaf saya salah persepsi. Tentang referensinya mungkin ada di link tentang studi Mahapadana Sutta di atas. Coba dilihat ke alamat tersebut. Jika saya salah memberi info di sini, karena sudah lama baca artikel tersebut jadi mungkin bisa lupa dan salah, mohon dimaafkan.

[ryu]

di MAJJHIMA NIKâYA ada yang mirip ceritanya nih :

MAJJHIMA NIKâYA III
3. 3. Acchariyabbhutadhammasuttaü
(123) The Discourse On Wonderful Things

I heard thus. At one time the Blessed One lived in the monastery offered by Anàthapiïóika in Jeta's grove in Sàvatthi. Then a lot of bhikkhus after the mid-day meal, were assembled and seated in the attendance hall and this conversation arose among them

ßFriends, it is wonderful and surprising how the Thus Gone One knows the Enlightened Ones of yore. How they came to final extinction, cut the diffusedness of the world, cut short their journey and cameto the end of the journey and end of all unpleasàntness. Saying, those Blessed Ones were of such birth, name, clan, virtues, thoughts, wisdom, abidings and such releases,' When this was said venerable ânanda said thus; `Friends, indeed the Thus Gone One has wonderful and surprising things and is endowed with them.û

When this conversation was going on, the Blessed One got up from his seclusion approached the attendance hall, sat on the prepared seat and addressed the bhikkhus. `Bhikkhus, with what talk were you seated here and what other talk did take place?û

ßVenerable sir, after the mid-day meal, we were assembled and seated in the attendance hall and this conversation arose among us. Friends, it is wonderful and surprising how the Thus Gone One knows the Enlightened Ones of yore. How they came to final extinction, cut the diffusedness of the world, cut short their journey and cameto the end of the journey and end of all unpleasàntness. Saying, those Blessed Ones were of such birth, name, clan, virtues, thoughts, wisdom, abidings and such releases. Venerable sir, when this was said venerable ânanda said thus; Friends, indeed the Thus Gone One has wonderful and surprising things and is endowed with them. When this conversation was going on, the Blessed One arrived.

Then the Blessed One addressed venerable ânanda. `If so ânanda, for the great pleasure of many declare the wonderful and surprising things of the Thus Gone One.û

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, the one aspiring enlightenment was born with the gods of happiness, with mindful awareness. " Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One.

`Venerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, the one aspiring enlightenment abode with the gods of happiness, with mindful awareness. " Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, the one aspiring enlightenment abode with the gods of happiness, until the end of that life span. " Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, the one aspiring enlightenment, disappeared fromthe gods of happiness, and descended into the mother's womb with mindful awareness. " Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, when the one aspiring enlightenment, disappeared fromthe gods of happiness, and descended into the mother's womb, in the world of gods and men, Màras, Brahmàs, recluses and brahmins there arose an immeasurable effulgence transcending the splendour of the gods. Even the dark uncoveredrecesses between the world systems where the resplendent moon and sun do not shine there arose an immeasurable effulgence transcending the splendour of the gods. Beings born there saw each other on account of that effulgence and knew that there were other beings born there. The ten thousandfold world system shivered and trembled on account of that immeasurable effulgence transccending the splendour of the gods" Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, when the one aspiring enlightenment, was born to this world from the mother's womb four gods stood guarding the four directions. They thought may the one aspiring enlightenment or his mother be not hurt by a human, non human or anyone in the world " Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One.

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, when the one aspiring enlightenment, was born into this world from the mother's womb, the mother by nature was virtuous, abstaining from, destroying living things, taking the not given, misbehaving sexually, telling lies and intoxicating drinks" Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, from the day the one aspiring enlightenment, descended to the mother's womb, sensual desires about men did not arise in the mind of his mother. She had risen above attachment to thoughts of any man" Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One `Venerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, when the one aspiring enlightenment, was born to this world the mother of the one aspiring enlightenment was endowed and provided with the five sense pleasures" Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One .

`Venerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, when the one aspiring enlightenment, was born to this world the mother of the one aspiring enlightenment was healthy, happy and had no ailments what so ever. She could see the one in her womb complete with all limbs large and small. Like a well completed comely lapis gem with eight facets, with a thread of blue, yellow, red, white or pale running through it. A man who could see would place it in his palm and would reflect. This is the well completed comely lapis gem with eight facets, with a thread of blue, yellow, red, white or pale running through it In the same manner, when the one aspiring enlightenment, was born to this world the mother of the one aspiring enlightenment was healthy, happy and had no ailments what so ever. She could see the one in her womb complete with all limbs large and small. Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One .

`Venerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, seven days after the birth ofthe one aspiring enlightenment, the mother of the one aspiring enlightenment passed away and was born with the happy gods" Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One .

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, other women give birth bearing the womb for about nine or ten months. That is not so with the one aspiring enlightenment, the mother of the one aspiring enlightenment bore the womb for complete ten months and gaves birth" Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One .

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, other women give birth either seated or lyingThat is not so with the one aspiring enlightenment, the mother of the one aspiring enlightenment gave birth standing" Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One .

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, when the one aspiring enlightenment, was born in this world first the gods accepted him and next humans" Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One .

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, when the one aspiring enlightenment, was born in this world, before he placed a foot on earth, four gods accept him and placing him in front of the mother said, queen be happy, you have given birth to a powerful son. " Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One . `Venerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, when the one aspiring enlightenment, was born, he was born pure uncontaminated with water in the passage, phlegm, blood or any impurity. As though a gem was placed on a Kashmire cloth. The Kashmire cloth is not soiled by the gem, nor the gem by the Kashmire cloth. This is on account of the purity of both. In the same manner when the one aspiring enlightenment, was born he was born pure uncontaminated with water in the passage, phlegm, blood or any impurity. " Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One .

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, soon after the one aspiring enlightenment was born he stood on his feet, and while the white umbrella was borne over him, went seven steps to the north, looked in all directions and utterred majestic words. I'm the chief in this world, the most accepted and the most senior. This is my last birth, I will not be born again. " Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One

ßVenerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, when the one aspiring enlightenment, was born in this world, in the world of gods and men, Màras, Brahmàs, recluses and brahmins there arose an immeasurable effulgence transcending the splendour of the gods. Even the dark uncoveredrecesses between the world systems where the resplendent moon and sun do not shine there arose an immeasurable effulgence transcending the splendour of the gods. Beings born there saw each other on account of that effulgence and knew that there were other beings born there. The ten thousandfold world system shivered and trembled on account of that immeasurable effulgence transccending the splendour of the gods" Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One.û

ßThen ânanda, bear this too as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One. ânanda, to the Thus Gone One knowing feelings, arise, persist and fade, knowingperceptions, arise, persist and fade, knowing thoughts, arise, persist and fade. ânanda, bear this too as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One.

ßVenerable sir, that to the Thus Gone One knowing feelings, arise, persist and fade, knowingperceptions, arise, persist and fade, knowing thoughts, arise, persist and fade. Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One.û

Venerable ânanda said thus, and was delighted knowing the Teacher acknowledges my words. Those bhikkhus delighted in the words of the venerable ânanda.

[seniya]

 [at] ryu:

Thx, atas postingannya. Baru ingat, menurut beberapa ahli kemungkinan kisah kelahiran Bodhisatta (Vipassi) dalam Mahapadana Sutta diambil dari sutta Majjhima Nikaya di atas.